To those of you not enjoying the game...

[PersonalC0ffee]

Let me ask you a simple question, yet a deceptive one, much like the game..

How many of you have opened the Orchard Gate? I ask this in honest faith because I feel this is the first step to understanding what the vision is for the game.

I feel this is an incredibly simple thing to do for a new player, probably one of the most vital, and the most likely thing players will stumble upon, should they be exploring properly.

If you haven't even opened this gate than you haven't even BEGUN to scratch the surface of the depth of this game. You really don't know how deep the rabbit hole goes...

You can open that Orchard Gate Day 1 if you know how.

I can confidently tell you that if they did not change anything from the demo in terms of codes or puzzles that I can boot up a brand new save file and open that gate right now having just purchased the game. It is all here in my journal from the demo, which they literally tell you have and to take notes or you won't be getting far.

This is the the major progression and satisfaction of accomplishment the game gives you. It gives you knowledge, that is why it is being compared to Outer Wilds and such.

If you don't understand that, then I'm afraid you've missed the point.

[tzeneth]

Publicado originalmente por PersonalC0ffee:

Publicado originalmente por tzeneth:

I agree with NorionV. I think a simple upgrade to be able to pin 1 room and be able to place it anywhere it legally could be placed would help so many people. I could then pin the boiler/lab and finally complete that unlock.

Ok at this point I'm going to ask. Do you have the electromagnet?

I got to door 46 and stopped (I find the game more interesting to explore than actually play). I have seen the workshop 2 times. The first I had no items that could be combined and the second I could only make the candle lighter. I haven't seen it since.

[PersonalC0ffee]

Publicado originalmente por tzeneth:

Publicado originalmente por PersonalC0ffee:

Ok at this point I'm going to ask. Do you have the electromagnet?

I got to door 46 and stopped (I find the game more interesting to explore than actually play). I have seen the workshop 2 times. The first I had no items that could be combined and the second I could only make the candle lighter. I haven't seen it since.

I guess I will help you folks here. Electromagnet is pretty helpful in connecting the boiler to lab. It is dang near almost required to avoid being at the complete mercy of the rng. This is one of the items I was talking about.

[Luminous Centipede]

Publicado originalmente por PersonalC0ffee:

Publicado originalmente por Lionheartwolf:

After being attacked by fan boys for my negative review, who said basically what OP is saying here, I can say now that I'm 45 hours in, cleared almost every puzzle the game has to offer, and now find myself standing in front of a blue door that I'm fairly confident that most people in this thread or in this forum has even seen yet, I can STILL say my opinion of the game is as valid now, as it was in the first 10 hours.

This dismissive, ignorant idea that you have to be some type of dummy who hates Roguelites or puzzles is exactly that. Your ignorant and baseless speculation as to why other people could hate a game you like.

Personally I don't have a problem with the puzzles, lore, or even the tule based gameplay. I think the problem is, as many have said that the RNG can be overbearing. There is NO point in this entire game where RNG cannot just abruptly ruin a run, or an objective you might have. This is not exclusive to the early stages of the game and getting into Room 46 for the first time. Yes, there are shortcuts that can assist in getting into that area, or even the other outside area, but at that point the RNG will just effect you in other ways. If you need a broken handle, you can be wasting time, need the boiler room? Not your call, need a touch, or workbench? Not up to you, I genuinely feel bad for the people looking for the 8 sigil keys. You need so many specific rooms, and in some cases at specific times.

Like I said in my review, roguelites often reward you intrinsically, or extrinsically and you make progress on those rewards. While Blue Prince does also provide these rewards they are not going to protect you from literally the exact same thing that has been hindering you since day 1. I'm no stranger to having 45 full rooms and still missing the items or rooms I need to progress the puzzle.

This game is like playing Forbidden Island/Desert with somebody who forgets to put all the tiles in you need in order to win, but it's compounded because even if they remembered to give you everything you needed, and you were good enough to succeed you then have a 1000 piece jigsaw you have solve and you only get a handful of pieces every time you survived the first half.

So no, you dont get to tell me that I didnt scratch the surface, and you don't get to tell me I must have enjoyed it because I spent 40 hours on it. I gave this game it's due diligence just so I can confirm my opinion to a bunch of toxic fan boys who refuse that their new flavor of the month might have some flaws.

Wow you got really far. I'm sorry you aren't enjoying it. See what I am attempting to do with this thread is get people to think about it differently to get off that surface level and help them see the forest from the trees because brother I got to tells ya, most players ain't as far as you are who have complaints similar to yours, they gave up a long time back.

With you being as far in as you are and still having your same opinion, I won't be able to change it. That's how you truly feel and yet you are still going. This is admirable in some way.

"There is NO point in this entire game where RNG cannot just abruptly ruin a run, or an objective you might have."

This is just how a roguelite is. This is a staple of the genre.

The argument should now be, putting a roguelite into a puzzle game, may not work, it may not be compatible. The argument should not be that Blue Prince sucks because it has RNG mechanics.

First, if RNG alone can kill your run, the game has to compensate for that by mitigating downtime (In Blue Prince this is the zoom in at the start of runs, having to re open safes over and over for 1 gem, the boat cutscene, the zoom in on the drawing room safe, having to walk to the outer room every run to draft whats there) Dicey Dungeons, for example, can just give you bad rolls and make it so you can't win, but runs are fairly quick, as is the gameplay.

The problem, quite frankly, about comparing this to other roguelites is that in other roguelites, the gameplay isn't focused on solving puzzles. The fun from Blue Prince comes from piecing together the parts and making things work, and when theres a lot of different things your trying to do, its great! But as you finish puzzles, and the stuff you have left starts to decrease, and the rooms you need for objectives start to increase, your less and less likely to actually solve the puzzles, to complete the gameplay objectives.

In isaac, if you don't get to do the specific objective you want to, you can still have a great time, and still "finish a run", same with ETG, gunfire, ROR2, and plenty others. In Blue Prince, it stands out that most of the days a lot of people have end with opening a menu to call it a day, with objectives unfinished. This is because of the RNG, and the game just doesn't quite compensate for it well enough. The puzzles are GOOD but its so frustrating not actually being able to do them, even when you've gone through the awful process of adjusting odds to try to get what you want, which even that is locked behind layers of RNG AFTER you unlock it.

[tzeneth]

Publicado originalmente por PersonalC0ffee:

Publicado originalmente por tzeneth:

I got to door 46 and stopped (I find the game more interesting to explore than actually play). I have seen the workshop 2 times. The first I had no items that could be combined and the second I could only make the candle lighter. I haven't seen it since.

I guess I will help you folks here. Electromagnet is pretty helpful in connecting the boiler to lab. It is dang near almost required to avoid being at the complete mercy of the rng. This is one of the items I was talking about.

But you're reliant on the RNG to even get it...As I said, I can't remember the last time I actually saw the workshop. On top of that, I need the two items to make the electromagnet. I think one of the more annoying aspects of this game is it seems to take RNG to make the RNG even a bit more manageable.

[VegasBuffet]

7 hours in. Nope. Didn’t unlock The Orchard Room. Good to know it was always there while I slowly was drip fed new rooms

[PersonalC0ffee]

Publicado originalmente por tzeneth:

Publicado originalmente por PersonalC0ffee:

I guess I will help you folks here. Electromagnet is pretty helpful in connecting the boiler to lab. It is dang near almost required to avoid being at the complete mercy of the rng. This is one of the items I was talking about.

But you're reliant on the RNG to even get it...As I said, I can't remember the last time I actually saw the workshop. On top of that, I need the two items to make the electromagnet. I think one of the more annoying aspects of this game is it seems to take RNG to make the RNG even a bit more manageable.

That is a very valid criticism and in that way, calling it punishing I feel is valid. I don't quite remember what makes it but I know you can order things for the next day in the terminal that should help with that.

[Draco18s]

Publicado originalmente por Stoibs:

I don't think I ever even drew that card in my several hours of play :conwayshrug:
(Assuming the Orchard Gate is a room?)

I take it you haven't turned around and looked outside the manor yet.

--

Now, I respect the criticisms being leveled at the game; this isn't Outer Wilds in terms of immediately applicable knowledge, but, I kinda don't care?

Oh sure there are definitely synergies that put things together and can do New Stuff as it were, but like, you don't need the boiler room to "solve" the pump room (at least so far as reaching Room 46 goes). I didn't even get the boiler for the first time until day 22... after getting to room 46 on day 18 or so (though the trophy room seems to disagree that I've been there, but I have the screenshot to prove it).

There's definitely various puzzles I haven't solved yet and other things to find and unlock. And it'd be nice to have a way to get around the luck aspect of the drafting, it's not... ruining the game for me.

(And while you can press shift to move a little faster, it really should be more faster).

[NorionV]

Publicado originalmente por PersonalC0ffee:

Publicado originalmente por NorionV:

No, this is incorrect.

It can be great, I can see it. Many people can see it. Staunch defenders are refusing to acknowledge that Blue Prince isn't executing it well. The RNG is too harsh while the ability to counteract it is too weak. It simply needs a better balance. The player should have more agency to the point that when you say 'something happens every run!' you're actually correct and not just spitting falsehoods.

It's absurd to dismiss the possibility of an entire genre just because you can't accept that there are problems with THIS specific game. It's the first of its kind, and it's got a bunch of flaws.

What roguelites are you playing that give player agency to couteract rng? I'm genuinely curious.

If you don't use any of the strats, items, or ways to mitigate the drafting pool for the rng, then yes it is absolutely over bearing.

So you're not willing to toss the baby out with the bath water well I would say if most people had this mindset the forums and discord would be a more pleasant place.

You've really gotta stop highlighting things like they're just immediately available to anyone that plays. All of the strats, items, and 'ways to mitigate the drafting pool' are ALSO locked behind RNG. What are you not understanding about the issue here? Everything is predicated on RNG. You need to succeed RNG checks to acquire things that allow you to mitigate the RNG.

I don't even need to name specific games. Rerolls, banishes, and saves are really common mechanics that are usually given innately, which would be known by anyone that plays these games.

You also usually have things like classes and maps showing path ways that you get to pick at the beginning of the run that provide a huge influence over the types of things you can get. A metagame shop that you can spend currency in is basically a staple in these games that allows you to directly and immediately power yourself up slowly, over time, starting as early as the beginning of a second 'run'. There are various other easily pushed mechanical examples, like donation machines in Isaac, the weapon upgrades in Hades (on top of the weapons that you can freely change at the start of any run), the gears and runes in the Rogue Legacy series, etc etc etc.

I could keep going, but I'm sure you get the picture. Most roguelites give you a LOT of personal agency and/or power to simply overcome the RNG, and it's usually given in healthy amounts. Not stingy like the Blue Prince is doing, where even in the early game it's entirely possible to go several runs with little or nothing happening just because of bad luck... which gets worse as the game progresses, not better, because the puzzles get more spread out and convoluted.

[NorionV]

Publicado originalmente por tzeneth:

Publicado originalmente por PersonalC0ffee:

I guess I will help you folks here. Electromagnet is pretty helpful in connecting the boiler to lab. It is dang near almost required to avoid being at the complete mercy of the rng. This is one of the items I was talking about.

But you're reliant on the RNG to even get it...As I said, I can't remember the last time I actually saw the workshop. On top of that, I need the two items to make the electromagnet. I think one of the more annoying aspects of this game is it seems to take RNG to make the RNG even a bit more manageable.

Exactly. All of the people saying 'just use all of the tools 4head' are completely ignoring that said tools require even more RNG to try and make use of.

Like the Workshop is a stellar example. But not just the workshop: you also need the right items to appear to make the items that can be crafted, IN THE SAME RUN THE WORKSHOP SPAWNS.

It's just too much. Way too much. There's too much out of the player's control and it makes the game feel bad, which is pretty obvious based on so many player opinions.

People have been mentioning a pinning feature. That'd go a LONG way to making a lot of this berable. I could pin my coat check so it's just there next run. I could pin my boiler so I can keep hitting the right tile to grind a lab more reliably. I could pin key rooms on the sides or corners to give me a more reliable advantage outlining the mansion, or I could pin a passageway right up the middle to make advancing around worlds easier.

Just one little feature change would make the game so much more interesting.

[PersonalC0ffee]

Publicado originalmente por NorionV:

Publicado originalmente por PersonalC0ffee:

What roguelites are you playing that give player agency to couteract rng? I'm genuinely curious.

If you don't use any of the strats, items, or ways to mitigate the drafting pool for the rng, then yes it is absolutely over bearing.

So you're not willing to toss the baby out with the bath water well I would say if most people had this mindset the forums and discord would be a more pleasant place.

You also usually have things like classes and maps showing path ways that you get to pick at the beginning of the run that provide a huge influence over the types of things you can get. A metagame shop that you can spend currency in is basically a staple in these games that allows you to directly and immediately power yourself up slowly, over time, starting as early as the beginning of a second 'run'. There are various other easily pushed mechanical examples, like donation machines in Isaac, the weapon upgrades in Hades (on top of the weapons that you can freely change at the start of any run), the gears and runes in the Rogue Legacy series, etc etc etc.

This ain't an RPG roguelite. This is a puzzle rogue lite, a lot of this won't fit the genre.

It does have rerolls, called Ivory Dice.

[Draco18s]

Publicado originalmente por NorionV:

I could keep going, but I'm sure you get the picture. Most roguelites give you a LOT of personal agency and/or power to simply overcome the RNG, and it's usually given in healthy amounts. Not stingy like the Blue Prince is doing, where even in the early game it's entirely possible to go several runs with little or nothing happening just because of bad luck... which gets worse as the game progresses, not better, because the puzzles get more spread out and convoluted.

I don't suppose you checked out the Strategies to Drafting at the library yet, have you. I nearly filled the entire house on my last run (not that I was trying, mind) and almost by accident managed to power the lab with the boiler without even having seen the boiler (and did power the furnace).

While yes, the luck-mitigation mechanisms are themselves acquired on luck, I don't think it's that bad.

Publicado originalmente por PersonalC0ffee:

It does have rerolls, called Ivory Dice.

You can even get them at the start of the day for several days in a row if you get the Shrine and donate around 20 coins (I did the donation at the end of a day with 19 and got a four day blessing that gave me an ivory die any time I drafted a shop and 5 coins any time I used an ivory die).

[PersonalC0ffee]

Publicado originalmente por Draco18s:

Publicado originalmente por NorionV:

I could keep going, but I'm sure you get the picture. Most roguelites give you a LOT of personal agency and/or power to simply overcome the RNG, and it's usually given in healthy amounts. Not stingy like the Blue Prince is doing, where even in the early game it's entirely possible to go several runs with little or nothing happening just because of bad luck... which gets worse as the game progresses, not better, because the puzzles get more spread out and convoluted.

I don't suppose you checked out the Strategies to Drafting at the library yet, have you. I nearly filled the entire house on my last run (not that I was trying, mind) and almost by accident managed to power the lab with the boiler without even having seen the boiler (and did power the furnace).

While yes, the luck-mitigation mechanisms are themselves acquired on luck, I don't think it's that bad.

Publicado originalmente por PersonalC0ffee:

It does have rerolls, called Ivory Dice.

You can even get them at the start of the day for several days in a row if you get the Shrine and donate around 20 coins (I did the donation at the end of a day with 19 and got a four day blessing that gave me an ivory die any time I drafted a shop and 5 coins any time I used an ivory die).

Yes but most people don't know or don't understand this.

[NorionV]

Publicado originalmente por PersonalC0ffee:

Publicado originalmente por NorionV:

You also usually have things like classes and maps showing path ways that you get to pick at the beginning of the run that provide a huge influence over the types of things you can get. A metagame shop that you can spend currency in is basically a staple in these games that allows you to directly and immediately power yourself up slowly, over time, starting as early as the beginning of a second 'run'. There are various other easily pushed mechanical examples, like donation machines in Isaac, the weapon upgrades in Hades (on top of the weapons that you can freely change at the start of any run), the gears and runes in the Rogue Legacy series, etc etc etc.

This ain't an RPG roguelite. This is a puzzle rogue lite, a lot of this won't fit the genre.

It does have rerolls, called Ivory Dice.

So what you've just done is an actual, legitimate 'argument in bad faith'.

For those that don't actually know what that means, so I don't seem like I'm just using buzz words: it's where someone hones in on what they perceive to be the weakest part of the other person's argument, completely ignoring everything else, and then tries to reduce the person's position by offering a weak and easily rebutted argument in response. The point is to refocus the argument away from the subject where you feel you're losing ground.

Because the goal isn't discussion, but just to be 'right'.

You went from long and well thought out posts to 'uuuuhhhh, it's not an RPG and what about ivory dice?'

Fanboys are unbearable. Have a good day.

[NorionV]

Publicado originalmente por Draco18s:

Publicado originalmente por NorionV:

I could keep going, but I'm sure you get the picture. Most roguelites give you a LOT of personal agency and/or power to simply overcome the RNG, and it's usually given in healthy amounts. Not stingy like the Blue Prince is doing, where even in the early game it's entirely possible to go several runs with little or nothing happening just because of bad luck... which gets worse as the game progresses, not better, because the puzzles get more spread out and convoluted.

I don't suppose you checked out the Strategies to Drafting at the library yet, have you. I nearly filled the entire house on my last run (not that I was trying, mind) and almost by accident managed to power the lab with the boiler without even having seen the boiler (and did power the furnace).

While yes, the luck-mitigation mechanisms are themselves acquired on luck, I don't think it's that bad.

Publicado originalmente por PersonalC0ffee:

It does have rerolls, called Ivory Dice.

You can even get them at the start of the day for several days in a row if you get the Shrine and donate around 20 coins (I did the donation at the end of a day with 19 and got a four day blessing that gave me an ivory die any time I drafted a shop and 5 coins any time I used an ivory die).

It's bad enough that plenty of people are taking issue with it, and all of the responses add up to 'just do better'.

Which is nothing new in video games, but it never stops being annoying when a game has legitimate problems and the game's defenders refuse to see any flaw in their precious titles.

[PersonalC0ffee]

Publicado originalmente por NorionV:

Publicado originalmente por PersonalC0ffee:

This ain't an RPG roguelite. This is a puzzle rogue lite, a lot of this won't fit the genre.

It does have rerolls, called Ivory Dice.

So what you've just done is an actual, legitimate 'argument in bad faith'.

For those that don't actually know what that means, so I don't seem like I'm just using buzz words: it's where someone hones in on what they perceive to be the weakest part of the other person's argument, completely ignoring everything else, and then tries to reduce the person's position by offering a weak and easily rebutted argument in response. The point is to refocus the argument away from the subject where you feel you're losing ground.

You went from long and well thought out posts to 'uuuuhhhh, it's not an RPG and what about ivory dice?'

Fanboys are unbearable. Have a good day.

You said that there exist other mechanics in roguelites for player agency to balance against the RPG and that blue prince didn't have them and you said rerolling.

That is not true.

You can absolutely re-roll in Blue Prince. They are called Ivory Dice.

Certain rooms have certain items that will appear in their item pools and you need to keep track of them.

The reason my responses are getting shorter is I'm getting busy and I'm tired of being attacked for my love of the game from people that don't GET IT or do not have the level of understanding about the game that I have because they didn't, won't, or refuse to think around the box, rather than in it.

I can't keep replying to every single post in here. I tried a good faith argument and it blew up in my face. I then tried to appeal to my feelings about Outer Wilds and draw parallels to what is happening here, that directly happened to me and turned me off that game.