To those of you not enjoying the game...

[PersonalC0ffee]

Let me ask you a simple question, yet a deceptive one, much like the game..

How many of you have opened the Orchard Gate? I ask this in honest faith because I feel this is the first step to understanding what the vision is for the game.

I feel this is an incredibly simple thing to do for a new player, probably one of the most vital, and the most likely thing players will stumble upon, should they be exploring properly.

If you haven't even opened this gate than you haven't even BEGUN to scratch the surface of the depth of this game. You really don't know how deep the rabbit hole goes...

You can open that Orchard Gate Day 1 if you know how.

I can confidently tell you that if they did not change anything from the demo in terms of codes or puzzles that I can boot up a brand new save file and open that gate right now having just purchased the game. It is all here in my journal from the demo, which they literally tell you have and to take notes or you won't be getting far.

This is the the major progression and satisfaction of accomplishment the game gives you. It gives you knowledge, that is why it is being compared to Outer Wilds and such.

If you don't understand that, then I'm afraid you've missed the point.

[Luminous Centipede]

Originally posted by TopoR:

Yeah, the RNG is really killing me. Placed 80% of the house, returned to the one spot where I want the boiler room and with 10 redraws (2 dice and 8 redraws via gems) it didn't appear.

Its wild to me honestly. Way too heavy on the RNG, and I hate the "thats the way roguelites are" argument. In a game like TBOI or ETG, the RNG alone doesn't kill your run. These games also oppose the other common argument I see about this game, that the other reason you lose runs is due to mismanaging resources. In both games I mentioned, you are given boosts for managing your resources well. More chests, alt floors, better items, etc. In Blue Prince, mismanaging resources can literally prevent you from actually progressing in the game, at all, and even if you manage them incredibly well like getting 10 redraws, you can still just get screwed on RNG.

I've played both a lot of roguelites and a lot of puzzle games, and honestly I feel like in Blue Prince, the roguelite elements hurt the puzzle elements and the puzzle elements hurt the rougelite elements. I really like the idea of randomization, but the way it was done feels like a fumble.

[NorionV]

Originally posted by Luminous Centipede:

Originally posted by TopoR:

Yeah, the RNG is really killing me. Placed 80% of the house, returned to the one spot where I want the boiler room and with 10 redraws (2 dice and 8 redraws via gems) it didn't appear.

Its wild to me honestly. Way too heavy on the RNG, and I hate the "thats the way roguelites are" argument. In a game like TBOI or ETG, the RNG alone doesn't kill your run. These games also oppose the other common argument I see about this game, that the other reason you lose runs is due to mismanaging resources. In both games I mentioned, you are given boosts for managing your resources well. More chests, alt floors, better items, etc. In Blue Prince, mismanaging resources can literally prevent you from actually progressing in the game, at all, and even if you manage them incredibly well like getting 10 redraws, you can still just get screwed on RNG.

I've played both a lot of roguelites and a lot of puzzle games, and honestly I feel like in Blue Prince, the roguelite elements hurt the puzzle elements and the puzzle elements hurt the rougelite elements. I really like the idea of randomization, but the way it was done feels like a fumble.

Isaac is a masterful example of allowing enough standout mechanics to just control the RNG from the jump.

I really think the game just needs more meta power, or a lot more in-run mechanisms to influence things.

Stuff like blood donation machines and sacrifice rooms are great examples of in run mechanics that cause Isaac to make you feel like a GOOD PLAYER because you can influence things so directly.

[Chernobyte]

Day 30, 16hrs in and getting pretty close to burnt out trying to get either the lab or pump room connected to the boiler room for at least 10 days now

[Badgerlord]

The irony is for me, the Orchard gate is so far the only permanent upgrade I HAVEN'T figured out yet (I didn't play the demo)

[D3]

too many deadends, cannot progress, permanent upgrades are too poor, this makes me lose interesent in this game

[Luminous Centipede]

Originally posted by NorionV:

Originally posted by Luminous Centipede:

Its wild to me honestly. Way too heavy on the RNG, and I hate the "thats the way roguelites are" argument. In a game like TBOI or ETG, the RNG alone doesn't kill your run. These games also oppose the other common argument I see about this game, that the other reason you lose runs is due to mismanaging resources. In both games I mentioned, you are given boosts for managing your resources well. More chests, alt floors, better items, etc. In Blue Prince, mismanaging resources can literally prevent you from actually progressing in the game, at all, and even if you manage them incredibly well like getting 10 redraws, you can still just get screwed on RNG.

I've played both a lot of roguelites and a lot of puzzle games, and honestly I feel like in Blue Prince, the roguelite elements hurt the puzzle elements and the puzzle elements hurt the rougelite elements. I really like the idea of randomization, but the way it was done feels like a fumble.

Isaac is a masterful example of allowing enough standout mechanics to just control the RNG from the jump.

I really think the game just needs more meta power, or a lot more in-run mechanisms to influence things.

Stuff like blood donation machines and sacrifice rooms are great examples of in run mechanics that cause Isaac to make you feel like a GOOD PLAYER because you can influence things so directly.

And its not like Isaac doesn't have horrible RNG unlocks like The Lost, its just that Isaac doesn't build itself on its puzzles as the main mechanic.

[ema 443]

I've got my damn Orchard Gate open, I've got my damn 20 steps, and I still feel like the game sucks. Because you can do everything right in one run, and whoops, it didn't want to give you the room. You'll have to restart.

[2019 Nissan Sentra]

cool I don't care, my point is that I don't like it.
take your orchard gate and spoil someone else's purchase

[PersonalC0ffee]

Originally posted by John Hammond:

Originally posted by PersonalC0ffee:

I'm sorry the game didn't click for you.

But you don't need to go spoiling it for everyone else.

The Outer Wilds comparison is SOLELY that knowledge is the unlock. Don't spoil outer wilds for me as well.

Boss, wtf are you doing? Go play Outer Wilds. I feel sorry for you but also envious. A fresh play through Outer Wilds with my knowledge erased would be amazing.

So let me reiterate on that for a moment.

I didn't play Outer Wilds and skiipped over it because people turned me off to the game by saying the gameplay sucks and the game sucks because it resets every 30 minutes. Parallels can be drawn there with what's going on here. The rng sucks, the game is boring etc. and people are going to hear that and decide Blue Prince is not worth their time, just like I did to Outer Wilds.

It wasn't until I met someone that actually GOT IT, that re-flipped the trigger for me to even care enough to maybe give it a shot. They explained the game to me in a way that was completely devoid of spoilers yet heavy with intrigue and also explained why the reset ain't that big an issue. That person was able to cut through the noise I had read or heard from others about why the game sucks and was able to tell me why it was good. I think stumbling along onto Blue Prince definitely helped tune my mind but I digress.


People are sleeping on Blue Prince because they can't see the forests from the trees. They are getting too tunnel visioned on the RNG causing them a problem which it can/will/does It is a rogue like, that always happens with these types of games but in this game in particular there are items, strategies and unlocks to mitigate it.

Originally posted by tzeneth:

I actually just randomly stumbled upon the answer to the Orchard puzzle. Literally just had the 2 rooms nearby and the item I needed. I felt mildly clever for realizing what I needed to do with the one room but I wouldn't call it that impressive of a puzzle.

See you noticed a connection and you put it together, that feeling becomes amplified the more you play and explore for the bigger unlocks and secrets. Things that have been right there the whole time yet hidden. That is what the game is about in a nut shell.

Originally posted by NorionV:

This is a terribly dishonest way to represent the problem with the game.

Of course you can just 'open it', because you already know the code from grinding the demo, which is the same thing I did. The Orchard Gate is a ♥♥♥♥ example to use.

Can you make the same claim for the west gate? Basement? Laboratory?

The funny part is that you said 'it should be the first things people get', and yet I opened the west gate first. I know someone that actually got the VAC puzzle on their first day. That person is having a GREAT time because he got really lucky with a lot of his rooms (he even showed me his floor plans and you would not believe what I saw).

Try to be a little more candid about the issue instead of manipulating the narrative. The RNG is trash and there's too many layers and not enough control over what you're able to get done. Using the Orchard Gate as your example is a low move.

I think there are two things MOST players are likely to be able to stumble upon easily, the orchard gate and the west gate. The other unlocks, no. Without a firm understanding how things interact with one another, even across rooms or how to get them to do so and certain items, then no but those get too heavy into spoiler territory. The reason I chose the Orchard Gate as an example is because it is a very vital unlock and I felt that MOST average players would go hunting around the grounds and find the gate, which trips their intrigue to find the code. You may be right that most might actually unlock the west gate first as that is fewer interactions per se.

First time player doing the lab puzzle with the boiler? That is a stand out. That puzzle is difficult if you are only solely relying on RNG without the item to make that much easier.

Originally posted by Riut:

Originally posted by PersonalC0ffee:

I have hundreds of hours in the demo. I was not mindlessly going through the motions. I was seeking, discovering, and testing. I had some absolutely amazing runs and I had some very bad miserable runs.

That's the way it goes with roguelites.

Lil bro has hundreds of hours in the demo and he's like "no guys this game doesn't waste your time you just gotta think tactically."

I never said the game does not waste time. I said you are not completely at the mercy of RNG. There are ways to manipulate and mitigate it but you can't remove it. This is what I have said. When it comes to criticisms about animations taking too long, I feel those are very valid because they do but what do you expect from a hollywood filmmaker.

[Lionheartwolf]

After being attacked by fan boys for my negative review, who said basically what OP is saying here, I can say now that I'm 45 hours in, cleared almost every puzzle the game has to offer, and now find myself standing in front of a blue door that I'm fairly confident that most people in this thread or in this forum has even seen yet, I can STILL say my opinion of the game is as valid now, as it was in the first 10 hours.

This dismissive, ignorant idea that you have to be some type of dummy who hates Roguelites or puzzles is exactly that. Your ignorant and baseless speculation as to why other people could hate a game you like.

Personally I don't have a problem with the puzzles, lore, or even the tule based gameplay. I think the problem is, as many have said that the RNG can be overbearing. There is NO point in this entire game where RNG cannot just abruptly ruin a run, or an objective you might have. This is not exclusive to the early stages of the game and getting into Room 46 for the first time. Yes, there are shortcuts that can assist in getting into that area, or even the other outside area, but at that point the RNG will just effect you in other ways. If you need a broken handle, you can be wasting time, need the boiler room? Not your call, need a touch, or workbench? Not up to you, I genuinely feel bad for the people looking for the 8 sigil keys. You need so many specific rooms, and in some cases at specific times.

Like I said in my review, roguelites often reward you intrinsically, or extrinsically and you make progress on those rewards. While Blue Prince does also provide these rewards they are not going to protect you from literally the exact same thing that has been hindering you since day 1. I'm no stranger to having 45 full rooms and still missing the items or rooms I need to progress the puzzle.

This game is like playing Forbidden Island/Desert with somebody who forgets to put all the tiles in you need in order to win, but it's compounded because even if they remembered to give you everything you needed, and you were good enough to succeed you then have a 1000 piece jigsaw you have solve and you only get a handful of pieces every time you survived the first half.

So no, you dont get to tell me that I didnt scratch the surface, and you don't get to tell me I must have enjoyed it because I spent 40 hours on it. I gave this game it's due diligence just so I can confirm my opinion to a bunch of toxic fan boys who refuse that their new flavor of the month might have some flaws.

[PersonalC0ffee]

Originally posted by Lionheartwolf:

After being attacked by fan boys for my negative review, who said basically what OP is saying here, I can say now that I'm 45 hours in, cleared almost every puzzle the game has to offer, and now find myself standing in front of a blue door that I'm fairly confident that most people in this thread or in this forum has even seen yet, I can STILL say my opinion of the game is as valid now, as it was in the first 10 hours.

This dismissive, ignorant idea that you have to be some type of dummy who hates Roguelites or puzzles is exactly that. Your ignorant and baseless speculation as to why other people could hate a game you like.

Personally I don't have a problem with the puzzles, lore, or even the tule based gameplay. I think the problem is, as many have said that the RNG can be overbearing. There is NO point in this entire game where RNG cannot just abruptly ruin a run, or an objective you might have. This is not exclusive to the early stages of the game and getting into Room 46 for the first time. Yes, there are shortcuts that can assist in getting into that area, or even the other outside area, but at that point the RNG will just effect you in other ways. If you need a broken handle, you can be wasting time, need the boiler room? Not your call, need a touch, or workbench? Not up to you, I genuinely feel bad for the people looking for the 8 sigil keys. You need so many specific rooms, and in some cases at specific times.

Like I said in my review, roguelites often reward you intrinsically, or extrinsically and you make progress on those rewards. While Blue Prince does also provide these rewards they are not going to protect you from literally the exact same thing that has been hindering you since day 1. I'm no stranger to having 45 full rooms and still missing the items or rooms I need to progress the puzzle.

This game is like playing Forbidden Island/Desert with somebody who forgets to put all the tiles in you need in order to win, but it's compounded because even if they remembered to give you everything you needed, and you were good enough to succeed you then have a 1000 piece jigsaw you have solve and you only get a handful of pieces every time you survived the first half.

So no, you dont get to tell me that I didnt scratch the surface, and you don't get to tell me I must have enjoyed it because I spent 40 hours on it. I gave this game it's due diligence just so I can confirm my opinion to a bunch of toxic fan boys who refuse that their new flavor of the month might have some flaws.

Wow you got really far. I'm sorry you aren't enjoying it. See what I am attempting to do with this thread is get people to think about it differently to get off that surface level and help them see the forest from the trees because brother I got to tells ya, most players ain't as far as you are who have complaints similar to yours, they gave up a long time back.

With you being as far in as you are and still having your same opinion, I won't be able to change it. That's how you truly feel and yet you are still going. This is admirable in some way.

"There is NO point in this entire game where RNG cannot just abruptly ruin a run, or an objective you might have."

This is just how a roguelite is. This is a staple of the genre.

The argument should now be, putting a roguelite into a puzzle game, may not work, it may not be compatible. The argument should not be that Blue Prince sucks because it has RNG mechanics.

[NorionV]

Originally posted by PersonalC0ffee:

The argument should now be, putting a roguelite into a puzzle game, may not work, it may not be compatible. The argument should not be that Blue Prince sucks because it has RNG mechanics.

No, this is incorrect.

It can be great, I can see it. Many people can see it. Staunch defenders are refusing to acknowledge that Blue Prince isn't executing it well. The RNG is too harsh while the ability to counteract it is too weak. It simply needs a better balance. The player should have more agency to the point that when you say 'something happens every run!' you're actually correct and not just spitting falsehoods.

It's absurd to dismiss the possibility of an entire genre just because you can't accept that there are problems with THIS specific game. It's the first of its kind, and it's got a bunch of flaws.

[PersonalC0ffee]

Originally posted by NorionV:

Originally posted by PersonalC0ffee:

The argument should now be, putting a roguelite into a puzzle game, may not work, it may not be compatible. The argument should not be that Blue Prince sucks because it has RNG mechanics.

No, this is incorrect.

It can be great, I can see it. Many people can see it. Staunch defenders are refusing to acknowledge that Blue Prince isn't executing it well. The RNG is too harsh while the ability to counteract it is too weak. It simply needs a better balance. The player should have more agency to the point that when you say 'something happens every run!' you're actually correct and not just spitting falsehoods.

It's absurd to dismiss the possibility of an entire genre just because you can't accept that there are problems with THIS specific game. It's the first of its kind, and it's got a bunch of flaws.

What roguelites are you playing that give player agency to couteract rng? I'm genuinely curious.

If you don't use any of the strats, items, or ways to mitigate the drafting pool for the rng, then yes it is absolutely over bearing.

So you're not willing to toss the baby out with the bath water well I would say if most people had this mindset the forums and discord would be a more pleasant place.

[tzeneth]

I agree with NorionV. I think a simple upgrade to be able to pin 1 room and be able to place it anywhere it legally could be placed would help so many people. I could then pin the boiler/lab and finally complete that unlock. Also, make it so the pin lasts between runs. Then you can get one room and just know "eventually" you'll be able to finish it. Doesn't help as much for the bigger puzzles that need a lot of rooms but can help with the rarer ones.

[PersonalC0ffee]

Originally posted by tzeneth:

I agree with NorionV. I think a simple upgrade to be able to pin 1 room and be able to place it anywhere it legally could be placed would help so many people. I could then pin the boiler/lab and finally complete that unlock.

Ok at this point I'm going to ask. Do you have the electromagnet?