To those of you not enjoying the game...

[PersonalC0ffee]

Let me ask you a simple question, yet a deceptive one, much like the game..

How many of you have opened the Orchard Gate? I ask this in honest faith because I feel this is the first step to understanding what the vision is for the game.

I feel this is an incredibly simple thing to do for a new player, probably one of the most vital, and the most likely thing players will stumble upon, should they be exploring properly.

If you haven't even opened this gate than you haven't even BEGUN to scratch the surface of the depth of this game. You really don't know how deep the rabbit hole goes...

You can open that Orchard Gate Day 1 if you know how.

I can confidently tell you that if they did not change anything from the demo in terms of codes or puzzles that I can boot up a brand new save file and open that gate right now having just purchased the game. It is all here in my journal from the demo, which they literally tell you have and to take notes or you won't be getting far.

This is the the major progression and satisfaction of accomplishment the game gives you. It gives you knowledge, that is why it is being compared to Outer Wilds and such.

If you don't understand that, then I'm afraid you've missed the point.

[Satin Finish]

Publicado originalmente por Varsoon:

My point is that, if you're playing the game, you're doing those runs anyway. The game rewards you for casting a wide net rather than walking a narrow path.

Except I had time for one more run, where I could have read those books. Now I have to make time for many more runs and remember that I've got these books to read. Not to mention that there is now gated information in those books that I could have been working on for 6 runs, but I wont have all that information for another 6 runs, so in your argument its actually gate-keeping me from doing stuff.

I'm also at a point where AFAIK for 'big stuff' I'm running out of things to find because they are all going to be dependent upon reading the books and getting back to Room46. Sure I could 'tick off' some of those trophy things in these runs, but it still ends up being the same thing, that all I have to look forward to is drawing the same rooms that i've done 30 times before!

I'm having runs dead-end now with half a dozen keys, gems and often over 100 coins being wasted as I don't get the rooms to make use of them. Then the exact next run I get the rooms but end up not having one or more of those resources.

This is the problem, where as in most rogue-type games you get the excitement and challenge from the game play being skill/dexterity based each loop regardless of overall progress, the gameplay in BP has now dried up completely in the core game loop. Solving rooms i've done several dozen of times before, meta-gaming to get keys to unlock stuff, or gold to buy stuff or gems to access rooms is repetitive.

As many people have said there is no issue with the puzzles, the slow reveals of mysteries etc, the problem is the slow progress of these core elements due to the RNG acting as another gate-keeper on top of everything else.

[Luminous Centipede]

Publicado originalmente por PersonalC0ffee:

Publicado originalmente por Varsoon:

You're going to do six more runs, though.
The problem is one of focus--you want to finish the library stuff then and there, but it'll take time.
But you're going to do six more runs, and there are other things you can investigate, it's not like getting any one book is what's gating your progress.

I do think books ordered should stay in the Library, though. Having to re-order a book is a big oof.

Library should server as a sort of book archive.

What do you mean by re-order?

I think they mean that the library doesn't really function like one would expect a household library to, you request a book one day then can read it the next, rather than it remaining in the library after you purchase it, which makes sense in context of whats going on in the manor, but it can be annoying to buy a book from the bookshop one day, request it the next, then go another day to actually read it.

Edit: Personally, I thought the empty spots on the bookshelves were going to fill out as I got more books, and it was kinda disappointing when they didn't

[CdrShprd]

here was my experience playing my first few runs: the house never expanded beyond 4 or 5 rooms. Each room had maybe a logic or math puzzle that rewarded me with a key or money, which then got reset since I had nothing relevant to use them on. How is this supposed to be fun? The puzzles aren't difficult, I’m essentially just resetting the day over and over trying to get a room that actually allows me to progress the game. I’ve noted tons of things, just in case, but none of them are relevant or useable. I think this poor game design, because I can imagine that another player that got the “correct” rooms to spawn would have had a much better time while having to solve fewer banal puzzles. hopefully you can see how it’s difficult to have fun with an experience like this, driven by being unlucky

[Frankie Bag o' Tricks]

At the beginning of the game, it doesn't help to classify rooms as "correct" or "incorrect." You said yourself you haven't seen any relevant connections with things you've noted down.

There's a relevant quote from the book MAZE by Chistopher Manson that I think really applies to people who think they are seeing all there is to see, and determining the game is largely about fighting the random rooms.

"There was really only one thing left for them to find: the Riddle of the Maze. They demanded that I show it to them. 'Do you think it is written on the wall for all to see? It is hidden here, somewhere, perhaps throughout the room. As far as you are concerned, what the Maze teaches can be learned in every room."

[CdrShprd]

Yeah, no… I looked up a guide. Just got unlucky, as I thought. Thanks for the quote though

[Frankie Bag o' Tricks]

And that's why you aren't making progress, because you are just looking at guides instead of learning the game's language and what it's trying to tell you.

[Festivuus]

I think the "defenders" (for lack of a better term) are not understanding what "wasting my time" means to different people.

I feel like I'm in the midgame. I found room 46, did some of the outside stuff, but there are things I know I can do, but the right combination of rooms and/or items has Never appeared. Never. NEVER!

I'll even spoiler some things even though we are on page 13:
Boiler room connecting to lab? The correct situation has NEVER occurred in 50+ days
Workshop while having the right items to create the power hammer? See above
Fix the Greenroom wall switch? See above

Even with some of the metagame assistance (+gems, +coins, etc) there are some puzzles that Can Not Be Solved without the right rooms being in place, and you must have the correct items, and the RNG is absolutely the roadblock.

Now, some people will say - well, it's a rogue game, you get what you get. Fair enough, but if you experienced 20 days in a row where every door off from the Entrance Hall led to nothing but dead ends would you be saying the same thing? This is what people are encountering in the midgame. Plenty of keys or coins or whatever, but the rooms and the item drops are just not coming in the right combos because of RNG that you can't manipulate.

That is what I call "wasting my time". I know what I need to do, the game is not allowing it to happen for reasons of RNG. I need a certain item, I know I can do X with it. But I also need room Y. Too bad so sad, 10 runs later you still haven't seen that combo. It's too tedious and frustrating. I know what you'll say here, "why didn't you try puzzle/clue Z, C, or J?" Because those situations did not present themselves either. Once you get close to the endgame puzzles, the mechanics of making them possible reduce more and more because of the RNG.

Again, I get roguelikes. I have obtained the amulet of Yendor. This game just needs a couple of tweaks to keep people playing after finding room 46 besides "keep slogging through, eventually you'll get to a goal"

If you enjoy playing the same ~20 room days over and over until you finally get a clue or a win, good for you. I don't enjoy that, and I hope the devs can add something to make the midgame slog more enjoyable.

[CdrShprd]

Publicado originalmente por Frankie Bag o' Tricks:

And that's why you aren't making progress, because you are just looking at guides instead of learning the game's language and what it's trying to tell you.

I didn’t look at a guide until your comment to confirm that what I was saying was correct. Insufferable

[Frankie Bag o' Tricks]

And I don't think the "detractors" are understanding that they are missing huge swathes of puzzles, upgrades, and by extension, the game itself.

If you were exploring new rooms you would find a book that explicitly tells you an easy strategy to connect the lab to the boiler. You would also figure out that there multiple are ways to adjust the rarity of rooms and/or ensure re-rolls for yourself when you need them (for example when you have the items you need but not a workshop, or you have the workshop but need green rooms/attic/mail room/tool shed, for item drops). You'd also know that you can't even fix the green room switch and make the power hammer in the same run. You'd also know you don't even need to fix the green room switch at all.

If you are running around for 20 plus days and just fighting the RNG, you need to stop aiming for a goal that's too hard to accomplish at that point in time. That's like saying "This boss has killed me in one hit 50 times so the game must be bad." Ignoring the fact that there are many easier bosses

[Luminous Centipede]

Publicado originalmente por Festivuus:

I think the "defenders" (for lack of a better term) are not understanding what "wasting my time" means to different people.

I feel like I'm in the midgame. I found room 46, did some of the outside stuff, but there are things I know I can do, but the right combination of rooms and/or items has Never appeared. Never. NEVER!

I'll even spoiler some things even though we are on page 13:
Boiler room connecting to lab? The correct situation has NEVER occurred in 50+ days
Workshop while having the right items to create the power hammer? See above
Fix the Greenroom wall switch? See above

Even with some of the metagame assistance (+gems, +coins, etc) there are some puzzles that Can Not Be Solved without the right rooms being in place, and you must have the correct items, and the RNG is absolutely the roadblock.

Now, some people will say - well, it's a rogue game, you get what you get. Fair enough, but if you experienced 20 days in a row where every door off from the Entrance Hall led to nothing but dead ends would you be saying the same thing? This is what people are encountering in the midgame. Plenty of keys or coins or whatever, but the rooms and the item drops are just not coming in the right combos because of RNG that you can't manipulate.

That is what I call "wasting my time". I know what I need to do, the game is not allowing it to happen for reasons of RNG. I need a certain item, I know I can do X with it. But I also need room Y. Too bad so sad, 10 runs later you still haven't seen that combo. It's too tedious and frustrating. I know what you'll say here, "why didn't you try puzzle/clue Z, C, or J?" Because those situations did not present themselves either. Once you get close to the endgame puzzles, the mechanics of making them possible reduce more and more because of the RNG.

Again, I get roguelikes. I have obtained the amulet of Yendor. This game just needs a couple of tweaks to keep people playing after finding room 46 besides "keep slogging through, eventually you'll get to a goal"

If you enjoy playing the same ~20 room days over and over until you finally get a clue or a win, good for you. I don't enjoy that, and I hope the devs can add something to make the midgame slog more enjoyable.

It DOES get easier over time, and more reliable to get bigger manors, but genuinely the problem is actually reaching that point. Most people don't have the time to invest in a game before it feels like you can actually get stuff done, and more importantly get stuff done reliably. I still, at some of the major post room 46 objectives have never had an opportunity to make either of the battery + broken lever + tool combos.

The room RNG gets easier as you learn to manipulate it (if you get the stuff that lets you, as its also tied to RNG) but item RNG is a real slog, even when you know what rooms are more likely to spawn certain items. Needing 3 items + workshop to make an item that is used in at least 3 rooms, 2 of which are also RNG is just layers of random most people can't/don't want to put up with.

Additionally, a lot of people who play roguelikes do so because they can fit a run in before or after work, which you can with blue prince, but a lot of times its just another run where nothing really happens.

I want to be able to recommend this game to a lot of people, but I know most of them don't have the time or desire to put up with the randomness and time wasted the game has.

[Frankie Bag o' Tricks]

No the key difference is whether you spend runs "looking" or whether you spend runs "grinding." If you play the game organically, all the runs you have to do to "grind" out upgrades will just happen naturally because it takes multiple runs to find the clues you need to solve something major, as you say. It only feels like grinding if you've taken the fun out by looking at a guide, or you just don't like detective games.

[Luminous Centipede]

Publicado originalmente por Howdy_McGee:

Publicado originalmente por Luminous Centipede:

I want to be able to recommend this game to a lot of people, but I know most of them don't have the time or desire to put up with the randomness and time wasted the game has.

This might have had been balanced with a more intriguing story line. The mansion being the main hook, and the main story being drip-fed through RNG discovery, and the story itself just being cliche and bland to start I think also was a determent to continuing (at least for me).

It does get quite intriguing post room 46, but thats stepping a bit into quite heavy spoiler territory, but seeing that heavily increased my willingness to continue,

[Festivuus]

If you were exploring new rooms you would find a book that explicitly tells you an easy strategy to connect the lab to the boiler.

And... How long does it take between me knowing this book exists, and being able to read it, and then setting up a situation where drafting the correct rooms is Not Guaranteed, but relying on RNG?

I know exactly what to do, the situation Has Not Happened in the 50+ days I've played.

Wasting My Time.

Apparently this does not apply to your opinion of the game. Agree to disagree.

[Frankie Bag o' Tricks]

You don't even need to read the book, if you were playing around with things you would just discover it on your own anyways. You guys think the game is hiding things behind RNG but it's actually just your own tunnel-vision and unwillingness to experiment with things that's holding you back. You guys have lists like 3 items long of things to do or try, while I'm sitting here with 70 hours and I still have a longer list than that. Try more things.

[CdrShprd]

Publicado originalmente por Festivuus:

If you were exploring new rooms you would find a book that explicitly tells you an easy strategy to connect the lab to the boiler.

And... How long does it take between me knowing this book exists, and being able to read it, and then setting up a situation where drafting the correct rooms is Not Guaranteed, but relying on RNG?

I know exactly what to do, the situation Has Not Happened in the 50+ days I've played.

Wasting My Time.

Apparently this does not apply to your opinion of the game. Agree to disagree.

It seems like people who enjoyed the game (or maybe just the two people in this thread who keep arguing) didn’t have to deal with crap RNG at pivotal moments, and don’t seem to understand how it ruins the experience and makes it different from the pleasant one that they were able to have. they also seem to think their progress in the game is a reflection of their own intelligence, so when others say they didn’t find the puzzles interesting, logically to them those people must be dumb or not paying attention