Are people REALLY learning something new every run?

[carllyngholm]

So... a selling point of this game that I've read in multiple reviews and even some posts in this thread, is that every (maybe not literally EVERY) run is worthwhile, because some sort of new clue is discovered and/or knowledge gained, room unlocked, etc. I don't know man, I starting to see those claims as being a little disingenuous. I've roughly 7 or 8 hours in this game so far and I'm starting to feel like my runs are kind of bleeding together. I've pretty much unlocked all the early-mid ranked rooms (and some of the higher ones), and now my days basically consist of arranging them in slightly different configurations, picking up whatever gems, coins, items, I find, before inevitably drafting rooms in a way that I have no available doors or (more likely) running out of keys or gems. Like... WHERE are these clues, and WHAT is this knowledge that is (apparently) being discovered with every run? Admittedly, I'm not the greatest a puzzle games, but I do have a brain capable of critical thought. So, what am I missing, or maybe more helpfully, what is your approach to this game? Thanks.

[Varsoon]

Originally posted by NorionV:

I don't get to choose what cards are drawn, and rerolls are exceedingly rare until much later.

You have more control over what gets drawn than you may realize.
Moreover, the game consistently rewards more methods of control the further you get.
Finally, the estate allows you to place 44 rooms per run, so just through process of elimination you will eventually get to see every one of the ~100 rooms available.
But beyond all of that, yes, having limited control over semi-randomized build options is the genre standard for rogue-likes. Those games aren't gambling, either.

[Varsoon]

Originally posted by Dervish:

I would be if I followed your advice to take dead ends for two of the starting doors... but I'm not, so I am able to progress up until I run out of resources and/or the game gives me dead end after dead end and I run out of options

I know you can see it when you press TAB, that is how I can see the game is screwing me because it just put it in a way that blocks off only exit out of the room...

"Just come at it from a different direction to get it the right way" does not work when I can only come into the room from the direction I am coming from - its about as useful as saying "get the RNG thing that lets you rotate them"

You're running out of resources and getting dead-ended late on because you're not taking enough of them early on. Dead Ends often feature the best rewards out of any rooms in the game and so should be appropriately placed, especially early into your ranks when you do not need resources like Keys and Gems as much.

Here's the thing, though--you know what rooms you have access to. You know what their rarities are. You know your current pool of remaining rooms. If you're aware that an overwhelming amount of the rooms you have left do not naturally exit North, then you need to start drafting rooms such that you can exit East or West in order to have the rooms in your pool allow you further progress. The game isn't 'screwing you' for having a consistent system. You're failing to learn the system and take advantage of it.

[NorionV]

Originally posted by Varsoon:

Originally posted by NorionV:

I don't get to choose what cards are drawn, and rerolls are exceedingly rare until much later.

You have more control over what gets drawn than you may realize.
Moreover, the game consistently rewards more methods of control the further you get.
Finally, the estate allows you to place 44 rooms per run, so just through process of elimination you will eventually get to see every one of the ~100 rooms available.
But beyond all of that, yes, having limited control over semi-randomized build options is the genre standard for rogue-likes. Those games aren't gambling, either.

You're wrong. I have exactly as much control as I realize.

Again, I know how to play the game. I know what rewards you can get and how to draft rooms """strategically""" and all of the other excuses you're going to offer. Not only have I gotten most of them, I've seen most of them, and people keep telling me about them literally every time this comes up. You guys really like to act like nobody offering criticisms knows how the game works or solved any of the puzzles or unlocked any of the upgrades.

It's still a 3-card draw in a game where much of the progression relies on you drawing specific rooms to make specific things happen. You rarely get to use all 44 slots. Much of the time you barely even get to use half, because again, it's a 3-card draw and it's not uncommon for you to just get poor choices.

[Varsoon]

Originally posted by NorionV:

I know what rewards you can get and how to draft rooms """strategically""" and all of the other excuses you're going to offer. Not only have I gotten most of them, I've seen most of them, and people keep telling me about them literally every time this comes up. You guys really like to act like nobody offering criticisms knows how the game works or solved any of the puzzles or unlocked any of the upgrades.

It's still a 3-card draw in a game where much of the progression relies on you drawing specific rooms to make specific things happen. You rarely get to use all 44 slots. Much of the time you barely even get to use half, because again, it's a 3-card draw and it's not uncommon for you to just get poor choices.

Hey, man, if you want to just punch down on an argument I am not even making, we're not going to get anywhere. We can go back and forth on this whole 'you are wrong' deal over and over and that's not going to resolve anything, either.

Yes, the game does not give you full, 100% control over which rooms you can place on every draft. That's the game . If that element did not exist, this would be a different game entirely. Just because there's an element of randomness does not render something less of a puzzle.

[NorionV]

Originally posted by Varsoon:

Originally posted by NorionV:

I know what rewards you can get and how to draft rooms """strategically""" and all of the other excuses you're going to offer. Not only have I gotten most of them, I've seen most of them, and people keep telling me about them literally every time this comes up. You guys really like to act like nobody offering criticisms knows how the game works or solved any of the puzzles or unlocked any of the upgrades.

It's still a 3-card draw in a game where much of the progression relies on you drawing specific rooms to make specific things happen. You rarely get to use all 44 slots. Much of the time you barely even get to use half, because again, it's a 3-card draw and it's not uncommon for you to just get poor choices.

Hey, man, if you want to just punch down on an argument I am not even making, we're not going to get anywhere. We can go back and forth on this whole 'you are wrong' deal over and over and that's not going to resolve anything, either.

Yes, the game does not give you full, 100% control over which rooms you can place on every draft. That's the game . If that element did not exist, this would be a different game entirely. Just because there's an element of randomness does not render something less of a puzzle.

Man, you're real full of yourself.

There's nothing to resolve, and never was. People have legitimate concerns, and you're condescending to people by assuming they are just playing the game wrong and then taking it upon yourself to try and school them on the drafting tactics. It's absolutely arrogant that you're speaking to me like this in the first place just because I have a negative opinion of the game.

I am expressing to you that of course it's not going to get us anywhere. I don't need you to try and teach me how to play the game, I already know how to play the game. I am saying that despite knowing how the game works, the RNG is still atrocious and unfun to deal with. I am not alone in this sentiment if these forums are anything to go by. But I see a lot of people doing ♥♥♥♥ similar to what you're doing: talking down to them about how to play the game properly when they offer constructive criticism.

It's called 'gatekeeping'. That's punching down.

And now you're arguing with strawmen. Nobody is asking for 100% control. Get a clue, man.

[Varsoon]

No one's talking down to you here. You just suddenly got aggressive in your rhetoric because you projected that someone offering advice for how to affect and mitigate RNG must be talking down to you.

Your point is that the game is a gamble and the player does not have meaningful control over the random elements of the game, resulting in a system that's not fun to engage with.

My point is that is provably not the case and that an engaging puzzle can still have randomized elements. The RNG is not atrocious by any means.

There's no punching down or gatekeeping happening here; we're of different minds towards the nature of the game. I think players should be offered more clear-cut modes of engaging with the systems early (both extrinsically and intrinsically), as it can take several hours and runs before these kinds of tools and information make themselves readily leveraged by someone playing blind. I'm encouraging people to employ strategies that will allow them to get to that end quicker rather than later, giving them an easier and more fulfilling game experience than the one they've locked into.

Doubling down on the notion the player has no control over how to advance in the game robs yourself of the agency to make it to those further points where the RNG manipulation is easier.

I'd also really like to get some more clues, because I'm currently flagging on exactly what I need to do next in the scenario, though I do have a few leads I am teasing out.

[Dervish]

Originally posted by Varsoon:

Originally posted by Dervish:

I would be if I followed your advice to take dead ends for two of the starting doors... but I'm not, so I am able to progress up until I run out of resources and/or the game gives me dead end after dead end and I run out of options

I know you can see it when you press TAB, that is how I can see the game is screwing me because it just put it in a way that blocks off only exit out of the room...

"Just come at it from a different direction to get it the right way" does not work when I can only come into the room from the direction I am coming from - its about as useful as saying "get the RNG thing that lets you rotate them"

You're running out of resources and getting dead-ended late on because you're not taking enough of them early on. Dead Ends often feature the best rewards out of any rooms in the game and so should be appropriately placed, especially early into your ranks when you do not need resources like Keys and Gems as much.

Here's the thing, though--you know what rooms you have access to. You know what their rarities are. You know your current pool of remaining rooms. If you're aware that an overwhelming amount of the rooms you have left do not naturally exit North, then you need to start drafting rooms such that you can exit East or West in order to have the rooms in your pool allow you further progress. The game isn't 'screwing you' for having a consistent system. You're failing to learn the system and take advantage of it.

Dude, I know how to play the game and I've made it to room 46... that doesn't change the fact that every complaint I've made is valid - Its great that you had more forgiving RNG that let you get "set up" better but RNG by its nature doesn't treat everyone the same way...

I'm going have to agree with NorionV...

Originally posted by NorionV:

People have legitimate concerns, and you're condescending to people by assuming they are just playing the game wrong and then taking it upon yourself to try and school them on the drafting tactics. It's absolutely arrogant

Spot on

[Varsoon]

Originally posted by Dervish:

Its great that you had more forgiving RNG that let you get "set up" better but RNG by its nature doesn't treat everyone the same way...

This claim is pure speculation and projection.
The rarities for rooms are the same base rarities with the same base rules across everyone's version of the game.
Furthermore, I'm not in here claiming that neither of you are capable of beating the game or that you haven't--to the contrary--my point is that asserting that the randomness of the game can't be controlled is a cop out for a resistance to engaging with game systems that open themselves up for direct manipulation.
There's no 'BS' or 'gambling' in the game (aside from in the literal casino but even that's weighed in the player's favor) and doubling down on that as a flaw of the game is a disingenuous cope.

The argument then becomes that the systems of RNG manipulation and mitigation should be made more readily available and clear for all kinds of players more early in the game, and, on that, I agree.

Nowhere do I extol that anyone's 'playing the game wrong'. NorionV came into the discussion insisting that he 'knew how to play the game' and doubled down on that tact because I don't agree that the game is a gamble and that I'm willing to provide literal evidence to the contrary rather than just saying 'no it is not'. He's chosen to interpret that as condescension and arrogance rather than someone pointing out facts to the contrary.

"This pizza is awful! It is full of plastic."
"You're meant to take off the shrink film."
"Get off your high horse, dude, I know how to eat a pizza, arrogant pizza gatekeeper, these are legitimate complaints."
That's the exchange here.
Yeah, maybe the pizza shouldn't have the shrink wrap on it, man, but that is an element of the design that is present, so you can't really buck people for offering suggestions around it.

Try not to take things so personally.

[Shot_Trip]

Originally posted by Varsoon:

Originally posted by Dervish:

Its great that you had more forgiving RNG that let you get "set up" better but RNG by its nature doesn't treat everyone the same way...

This claim is pure speculation and projection.
The rarities for rooms are the same base rarities with the same base rules across everyone's version of the game.
Furthermore, I'm not in here claiming that neither of you are capable of beating the game or that you haven't--to the contrary--my point is that asserting that the randomness of the game can't be controlled is a cop out for a resistance to engaging with game systems that open themselves up for direct manipulation.
There's no 'BS' or 'gambling' in the game (aside from in the literal casino but even that's weighed in the player's favor) and doubling down on that as a flaw of the game is a disingenuous cope.

The argument then becomes that the systems of RNG manipulation and mitigation should be made more readily available and clear for all kinds of players more early in the game, and, on that, I agree.

Nowhere do I extol that anyone's 'playing the game wrong'. NorionV came into the discussion insisting that he 'knew how to play the game' and doubled down on that tact because I don't agree that the game is a gamble and that I'm willing to provide literal evidence to the contrary rather than just saying 'no it is not'. He's chosen to interpret that as condescension and arrogance rather than someone pointing out facts to the contrary.

"This pizza is awful! It is full of plastic."
"You're meant to take off the shrink film."
"Get off your high horse, dude, I know how to eat a pizza, arrogant pizza gatekeeper, these are legitimate complaints."
That's the exchange here.
Yeah, maybe the pizza shouldn't have the shrink wrap on it, man, but that is an element of the design that is present, so you can't really buck people for offering suggestions around it.

Try not to take things so personally.

You're talking to people who have already beaten the game, rolled credits, hit room 46, and have already solved the broader puzzle of the game by comparing them to someone who cannot cook a frozen pizza.

Good gracious, man, get over yourself.

[Dervish]

Yeah not doing a lot to dispel the "arrogant" and "condescending" accusation there, just doubling down and being even more of a d!ck about it...

[Varsoon]

Anyone who has gotten that far in the game should be more than well aware of the tools the game affords you to overcome any element of randomness, both in terms of information gleaned and meta-unlocked mechanics.

Seeing those same people still stuck on such a fundamental misunderstanding and misrepresentation as to insist the game isn't a puzzle game but series of successive rolls of dice is absolutely comparable to the example given. I'm not expressing that these players literally can't properly cook a frozen pizza, and to take it as such is taking it personally.

This isn't about intelligence or skill or accomplishment in any measure or lack thereof, so telling me to get over myself or that you consider these posts as condescending is reflective of the same failure of engagement that's on display with the original problem statement.

I'll reiterate, don't take it so personally. We're talking about a game and where its design works and doesn't. Just because someone disagrees with your take on that doesn't render it some personal attack but, time and time again, these threads devolve into people defending their game knowledge / accomplishments while expressing variable amounts of systems engagement.

[Celebrim]

For me, after 50+ days, I have "learned something" in almost every one.

Early on its basic things like encountering new rooms and new puzzles.
Next it was a room's element/attribute I need to record that I didn't know I needed in previous runs.
Some rooms have a progressive "payout" in clues and require multiple visits.
Often I find clues late in a run that I can't test until the next run.

I try to start a run with a specific goal, but if I am getting locked out, I can usually find something to do like draft a progressive room or more closely scrutinize some rooms I haven't looked at in a while and I usually still find something new.

Not sure if you count it, but I had a couple runs where the new thing was just proving a theory won't work.

If I didn't learn something, it was usually because I got too focused and refused to veer to something else when my planned goal wasn't working out.

[AbyssianOne]

Originally posted by NorionV:

Originally posted by R1PPER:

Yes. Sometimes that means nothing more than you've learnt how to play your rooms or understanding a little more about a room. It can be subtle but you definitely learn something newnon every big run. Maybe not a very quick run that your not really paying attention to.

So, 'no'.

The answer is no.

The game makers can't guarantee you'll learn something new every run, but there is plenty there for you to learn if you pay enough attention. There are multiple secrets and clues to puzzles in every single room.

[iknowwhyshespeaks]

Originally posted by Howdy_McGee:

IMO that's the thing - it's a boardgame. IF there was given context that certain choices could spawn certain rooms then maybe I could see it not being RNG - but there is no context given for that so as far as a regular player goes it just seems like RNG which doesn't make it fun.

There is context given that certain rooms have spawn conditions. So far as I've seen, every room that has a trigger condition can either be intuited by you figuring out the trigger condition organically, either by noticing the pattern or just by (the far less optimal) process of trial and error, or the game will give you the information outright via a note or memo found in a related room or after solving a puzzle. There's a note that will tell you all of the main "drafting" rooms, i.e. rooms that require specific drafting conditions, in the game. You have to solve the sheet music puzzle to get that, though, but a few of them I'd already guessed just from playing the game. That's one of the layers of the puzzles the game presents and that's going to be something you either like or you don't. I personally enjoy it because I see that as rewarding the player's own deductive/inductive reasoning and pattern matching skills if they can figure it out on their own from the context clues laid out, while also providing an out for those who can't deduce it on their own. I figure that's probably the game's biggest appeal. It can be challenging, but even if you can't figure something out the game will help you if you keep your eyes open and your mind working. Others, however, will see it as needlessly hiding information they find necessary for forward progress behind seemingly opaque systems. While I think the game could add a few more RNG manipulation tactics to help those really struggling, I don't think it's a flaw of the game design.

[iknowwhyshespeaks]

Originally posted by Howdy_McGee:

I think it's a flaw in the puzzle design itself

If we're taking that one puzzle in isolation, maybe. But the thing is, I was never specifically hunting down the pieces of that puzzle. I was aware of it, but I also had 5/6 other puzzles that I was aware of to occupy my time so I could keep it as essentially a side quest to keep an eye out for while I played. (Also, bc the rare room has some pretty specific spawn conditions, it ends up being pretty easy to spawn soon after solving the puzzle IMO. I also wouldn't be surprised if on the backend the game increases the spawn rate of that room after you first solve the puzzle, but I digress) That puzzle is clearly meant to be solved concurrently, along with others, rather than say the pump room puzzle which is self-contained (solving it at least is). It's a different kind of puzzle, and it being a different type than the more self-contained ones is not a flaw for me, since it forces you to explore and interact with more of the other game systems and puzzles For example, it's very much intentional that one of the music sheets is in the workshop and the other is in the room with the broken lever .

Originally posted by Howdy_McGee:

so there's no context given to the draft and the context of that overall puzzle is only acquired by doing run after run after run to bring it all together with an unknown number of loops.

There is context for the drafting if you pay attention to the patterns Like how the bookstore never shows up without the library first . It might not be obvious and I certainly didn't intuit each of the draft rooms before getting that info sheet, but it's possible and part of the pattern recognition that makes solving the puzzles rewarding, imo. If it was 100% impossible to intuit the room spawn info outside of that puzzle, I'd probably agree with you, but it's not.