For a game that requires exploration...

[Haxton]

The roguelike mechanic penalizes drafting rooms with negatives (red, dead ends) while encourages drafting rooms with benefits (items, more than 2 doors, money, gems, dice, etc.) - otherwise you might lose up to 1hour of RL time due to the numerous time-wasting mechanics.

So, what results is that the player tends to draft the same rooms again and again (the complaints of parlor / dartboard / the safes being too repetitive, anyone?), in essence - the game discourages you from exploring, and when you do explore, it is forced exploration, dished out by the RNG as a punishment, not a reward.

For a "strategy puzzle adventure" (steam store) game, it sure discourages actual adventure.

[Haxton]

ps. This (the time wasting mechanics) is one of the two reasons why cheat engine is a necessity while playing this game.
pps. I half suspect that this (the roguelike mechanic) was implemented purely to disguise the fact that the puzzles often tell you what to do exactly

[Curious Duck]

With progress you find out ways to negate the downsides of rooms.

[Haxton]

Messaggio originale di Curious Duck:

With progress you find out ways to negate the downsides of rooms.

It goes back to the fact that most of those methods are being at the mercy of RNG themselves, and again back to... how are you going to discover what powered Laundry does if you were desperately trying to power the pump room?

[Garamoth]

Red rooms can be very powerful if you know how to play around their drawbacks. Parlor and Billiard are meant to be very common, they're your starter pack: solve a quick puzzle, get your reward to get you started in the morning. If your run can't survive a sudden dead end or new room, you're not managing your open doorways right.

Man, so many topics about people who refuse to understand either the strategy game or the puzzle game.

[Haxton]

Messaggio originale di Garamoth:

Red rooms can be very powerful if you know how to play around their drawbacks. Parlor and Billiard are meant to be very common, they're your starter pack: solve a quick puzzle, get your reward to get you started in the morning. If your run can't survive a sudden dead end or new room, you're not managing your open doorways right.

Man, so many topics about people who refuse to understand either the strategy game or the puzzle game.

Weight room have the potential to end a run, especially in early game. I have not seen a way to remove archive's downsides, other than relying on the RNG (and it stays a threat). Dead ends always remove a connection, you need to plan for it (meaning, you won't be drafting those as often, you are incentivized to draft it in specific locations, in the corner and already-dead connections, and not on the main path)

Parlor and Billiard being very common is not relevant. The problem is that people will be incentivized to draw those, and not other (not-beneficial) rooms.

I could have said something about refusing to understand the topic or refusing to acknowledge actual flaws, but eh.

[Garamoth]

That's the thing. Weight Room is a run winning room if you know how to play it.

[.]

prepare for the onslaught of sealioning white knights

[PersonalC0ffee]

Messaggio originale di Haxton:

Messaggio originale di Garamoth:

Red rooms can be very powerful if you know how to play around their drawbacks. Parlor and Billiard are meant to be very common, they're your starter pack: solve a quick puzzle, get your reward to get you started in the morning. If your run can't survive a sudden dead end or new room, you're not managing your open doorways right.

Man, so many topics about people who refuse to understand either the strategy game or the puzzle game.

Weight room have the potential to end a run, especially in early game. I have not seen a way to remove archive's downsides, other than relying on the RNG (and it stays a threat). Dead ends always remove a connection, you need to plan for it (meaning, you won't be drafting those as often, you are incentivized to draft it in specific locations, in the corner and already-dead connections, and not on the main path)

Parlor and Billiard being very common is not relevant. The problem is that people will be incentivized to draw those, and not other (not-beneficial) rooms.

I could have said something about refusing to understand the topic or refusing to acknowledge actual flaws, but eh.

This means you haven't been exploring enough. There's a number of ways to deal with the archives downside.

You need to draft your dead ends or they'll show up later. I guess a lot of players do not understand you can only have 1 copy of every room in your house unless you put in the CoM.

[PersonalC0ffee]

Messaggio originale di Garamoth:

That's the thing. Weight Room is a run winning room if you know how to play it.

Yup they have no idea how valuable that room is.

Dark Room and Archives are far worse, IMO.

[Haxton]

Messaggio originale di PersonalC0ffee:

Messaggio originale di Garamoth:

That's the thing. Weight Room is a run winning room if you know how to play it.

Yup they have no idea how valuable that room is.

Dark Room and Archives are far worse, IMO.

mm. With the help of a famously RNG-heavy item the weight room becomes one of the key pieces
granted it is a permanent upgrade to the room

Darkroom and Archives - yeah, those remain a threat as I said, making you to avoid it especially when you should have been exploring

[dmeister]

Remember that five of the eight Red Rooms have three or four doorways (i.e. Weight Room, Archives, Dark Room, Chapel, Gymnasium) and none of them cost any gems which makes them very useful if you can deal with the downside. For instance, the Archives has the same number of doorways as the Passageway which costs 2 gems or the Cloister which costs 3 gems but the Archives costs no gems. So if you're willing to work with or able to negate the downside of the Archives then you can get a very useful four way intersection at no gem cost. Whether or not you're willing to work with those red rooms is up to you and how risk averse you are as a player. Personally I'm perfectly happy playing most of those rooms at various times depending on the specific situation.

As far as the Maid's Chamber, Furnace, and Lavatory go, I'm less likely to play those since they are mostly just downsides. However, it's worth noting that the Furnace does have a niche use or two (I won't spoil it here), and if you do have a way to negate the "effect" of the Lavatory it's actually a pretty nice dead end item room so I do often like to play Lavatory when I have a negation ability. (So really Maid's Chamber is the only red room I hardly ever play. Hypothetically Maid's Chamber also acts as a Bedroom so I could maybe see using it if you have a good Bedroom combo going, but that's more or less it really. 🤷‍♂️)


P.S. You don't need a cheat engine to play the game, I've never used one and I'm doing just fine.

[dmeister]

Messaggio originale di PersonalC0ffee:

Messaggio originale di Garamoth:

That's the thing. Weight Room is a run winning room if you know how to play it.

Yup they have no idea how valuable that room is.

Dark Room and Archives are far worse, IMO.

Out of curiosity

Are you guys talking about the Antechamber lever hidden in the Weight Room or something else? Personally I think the lever is ok but not "run winning" since there are so many other ways of getting in the Antechamber that are practically guaranteed to come up. (I get into the Antechamber most of the time and I don't think I've once ever used the Weight Room to do it. 🤷‍♂️ )

Is there another benefit you guys are thinking of to the Weight Room besides it being a no-gem-cost four way intersection (which is very nice, no doubt!)

[Garamoth]

All of the above, plus the weight bench can also have the broken lever on it.

EDIT: It also opens the bottom door, which is the easiest to access. Besides, if the upper door is already open, steps don't really matter, just make a beeline for victory. Weight Room won both my Cursed and Dare runs.

[Haxton]

Messaggio originale di dmeister:

Remember that five of the eight Red Rooms have three or four doorways (i.e. Weight Room, Archives, Dark Room, Chapel, Gymnasium) and none of them cost any gems which makes them very useful if you can deal with the downside. For instance, the Archives has the same number of doorways as the Passageway which costs 2 gems or the Cloister which costs 3 gems but the Archives costs no gems. So if you're willing to work with or able to negate the downside of the Archives then you can get a very useful four way intersection at no gem cost. Whether or not you're willing to work with those red rooms is up to you and how risk averse you are as a player. Personally I'm perfectly happy playing most of those rooms at various times depending on the specific situation.

If you can mitigate the red room's downsides without that one room it's probably post-46.

Anyway, this does not negate my original point that the game discourages you from exploring even if you need to explore, and when it makes you explore it often comes across as a punishment.

[dmeister]

Messaggio originale di Haxton:

Messaggio originale di dmeister:

Remember that five of the eight Red Rooms have three or four doorways (i.e. Weight Room, Archives, Dark Room, Chapel, Gymnasium) and none of them cost any gems which makes them very useful if you can deal with the downside. For instance, the Archives has the same number of doorways as the Passageway which costs 2 gems or the Cloister which costs 3 gems but the Archives costs no gems. So if you're willing to work with or able to negate the downside of the Archives then you can get a very useful four way intersection at no gem cost. Whether or not you're willing to work with those red rooms is up to you and how risk averse you are as a player. Personally I'm perfectly happy playing most of those rooms at various times depending on the specific situation.

If you can mitigate the red room's downsides without that one room it's probably post-46.

Anyway, this does not negate my original point that the game discourages you from exploring even if you need to explore, and when it makes you explore it often comes across as a punishment.

I think you might be confusing "punishment" with "higher risk for greater reward". A no-gem cost three or four way intersection can be worth it even without having ever reached Room 46. Also note that you can in fact negate the Dark Room and Gymnasium with just the Utility Closet (so again, no Room 46 needed there) and as far as the Chapel and Gymnasium go you can often just take the small penalty for the free 3 way intersections. The Archives and Weight Room penalties are stiffer but they're also four way intersections so the payoff is greater if you can absorb them.

So I disagree that the Red Rooms are "punishments", they're good rooms but that come at a cost other than simply gems.