Controller Functionality

[Baz]

I use both M&KB and Controller, so if you want feedback on combinations I can provide it.

I would like to see a toggle between function for the `cursor` and the `rotate camera view` become available, the likely button would be R3, with R joystick toggled to rotate camera view. At the moment it is press and hold M3 for view only.. I think the toggle between function would work nicely with M&KB as well. I also think that the R joystick should do `zoom in and out` at the same time. Anyway, just make the option for hold down / toggle in the keybinds menu, and also joystick up down left right, and people can choose more configurations themselves.

^As it stands I would not use controller R joystick for a cursor at all, it's sensitivity is not accurate, perhaps with a slider to alter sensitivity it might be ok, but for now it's a job for the mouse only. So it would be best to be able to have the mouse on `cursor` and the R joystick on `rotate camera view` and `scroll in and out`. Many games don't provide enough customisation in keybinds to account for these things.

A lot of things I can't add to a controller key in the keybinds menu.

Zoom on controller at present uses multiple taps only on L1 R1.. not bad for fine adjustment but could do with a `hold for scroll` function added also on triggers, because it's annoying.

R2 button is not associated to L mouse button at present, and I'm unable to add it in the keybinds.

There is a glitch that I think is associated to having the controller. If items in the menu are right clicked to give options, like `eat` or `eat one` all of the options flash and it is difficult to select.

Personally, I would like to see more combined menus in the inventory section. For example, if I enter a campfire, I can craft a trap or do anything else while the page is open, instead of needing to exit and enter a different inventory. I have to craft small rocks in one menu and then switch menus to make a campfire for example, why not just have it all together. There is enough screen space to be doing multiple things together, even if some of the pictures are made smaller to help fit. Overall it's a great inventory, I'd just like to see everything together more.

Also, I always think very limited slots is annoying, I would like to see items be more difficult to find or obtain or craft, instead of being drastically limited by inventory slots.

Viewpoint is an issue discussed in other posts, I think it feels ok. I feel like I have good visibility left and right, but I feel like it's a bit limited to the top. I keep having to rotate the screen sideways to get see what I think should be in my field of view. Perhaps a combination of lowering the angle another 10* and moving character position lower on the screen and even raising the camera view might solve the feeling? Maybe have some adjustments for this in the options menu. I really like the top down view, I just feel my field of view is impeded at the moment.

[originalstudios]

Thanks for checking out the game, and thanks for the detailed controller info!

I will support controllers in the game eventually, once I figure out the right UI/UX system for being able to interact and pick up many small objects without a cursor. Currently planned is a separate popup window that you can trigger to show nearby items in a list that is easily selectable via controller. I don't see adding a moveable cursor controlled by joysticks as a thing in the game as I think it would be too weird, but please correct me if I'm wrong in that regard. I'm not a veteran controller user for PC games, I've only used an Xbox controller in the past for less mouse-heavy games.

I actually specifically only allow keyboard and mouse bindings in the settings for now, given I don't want to add any controller support until I dedicate a ton of time to make sure it's fully solid. I'm curious how you are seeing some(?) controller inputs working in the game already. Are you using a Steam controller with mouse/key emulation or something similar to that?

Once I actually enable setting controller inputs in the settings, then yeah there will probably be a rework of which actions are toggleable and whatnot.

Regarding combined menus, yes this is a great point. I've briefly thought about a huge UI overhaul that combines every window into a larger one containing a bunch of tabs like you'd see in other games, or something along those lines. It's just that the game is still very early stage and the various pieces are evolving very quickly, so I haven't sat down to tackle a giant overhaul until things are more solidly in place.

I'm sad you find the limited slots annoying, I specifically made it limited to align with realism a bit more there. Do you find it annoying even with the larger backpack later in the game?

And lastly regarding camera angle, how would you feel about a separate potential solution, where I give the ability to pan the camera even more if you move the mouse to the edge of the screen? Right now it moves a bit in the direction of the cursor, but I could make it move a lot more so you'd be able to get a bit more visibility without needing to tilt the camera more.

I want to avoid more tilting due to the higher likelihood of missing chunks appearing in the distance, I feel like it's not a great experience. A bunch of optimization work is needed before I can really extend the range of loaded chunks in the game and allow more tilt.

[Baz]

I have really enjoyed the game so far. If there's anything to work on thematically (imo).. I find that I don't really have the drive to `need to come back` and play more.. which is what I think will `sell` the game in the future. That's a hard thing to put your finger on, but I think it might be that I spend a lot of time eating and drinking, a bit repetitive, so doing other things is inhibited by this, so I'm not really thinking about progression enough. At the same time.. I really like putting time into food and water prep and the realism involved. Maybe making the food and water consumption go down slower might solve this? Like.. I think if I catch and prepare a rabbit, it should get me through the day anyway? Or when I craft a ceramic bowl for the fire, it should really make a difference to quenching my thirst bar compared to the stone. Maybe then focusing on other things might get me `needing to play` more.. I've asked some other friends to play for their opinions too.. We're survival game players with many thousands of hrs under our belts.. so I hope we can give some helpful input, because I really like the feel of the game.

For the inv slots.. What I find is that I just come back to the base and dump everything on the ground and it becomes a mess atm.. it's good that it doesn't all despawn, and a nomadic camp might end up like that a bit? I agree with keeping stones and wood and heavy items out of the inv for realism, Valheim did a great job with that using stone piles and wood stacks. What about a stone / wood pile (crafted like the charcoal pile) that can be infinitely added to and can be drawn from within the inv when the char is within a certain radius of it? But multiple small items like herbs, fat, intestines, rope etc.. more stacks in the inv would allow for greater mobility and moving campsites, exploring, etc. Often limited inv slots just annoys players unless it's integral to the game somehow.. like.. it just means I have to walk somewhere twice instead of once. For example.. if I had the opportunity to obtain a mule, and I had to protect the mule from wild animals.. so I could choose between multiple trips with limited slots or endangering my mule but being able to do it in a single trip, then that's integrated with a reason in the gameplay. I would like to see a game that rejigged the whole idea of inventories and storage purposefully, I'm a bit sick of 6 slots in a small storage chest and upgrading to 9 slots at level 10, craft this item in a workbench, craft that in a smithy, craft those in a chem bench etc. Your realistic and nomadic approach seems to give the opportunity to do something different here.

I use a Razer Raiju controller, it seems to be supported. I can select some actions with the ABXY buttons, both joysticks work.. L is WASD, R is the onscreen cursor (the selection cursor).. it would work as the selection cursor, except that it's too fast atm.. I may be able to adjust it in steam.. but it would be better as U-D zoom and R-L screen rotation.. actually I could probably change that in steam too come to think of it. I think it would absolutely work to select things with the R joystick. 2 things would need to be considered.. 1. The joystick has variable like a trigger.. you need to slow it down a lot in the center for accuracy. 2. you would need to add an aim auto targeting feature that pulls the cursor to selectable items when you near them, and flicks to another when you motion in that direction. Ultimately, if the game ever went to console, or controller support was enabled, it would be good for the L joystick to toggle between those 2 functions (cursor and rotation). Atm I don't know why you wouldn't toggle between them on the mouse.. holding M3 seems a bit cumbersome.. or have the ability to choose toggle. I think using a list to pick up items would be much less immersive and less intuitive than the joystick.

The camera angle isn't a huge deal, I just felt it was a bit claustrophobic in the upper screen, it's possible your solution might be better, or simply being able to zoom out a bit further too (skyward). Perhaps a mini-map might help too, just for orientation.. because twisting the screen constantly can be disorienting.. I often found myself wishing I had one.

[originalstudios]

Originally posted by Bazil:

I find that I don't really have the drive to `need to come back` and play more..

Damn, that's tough to hear. I hope that all the new things I've been working on, the new resource-rich locations on the map, the actual story, tasks and added pressure centered around the Blight will help in this regard in the near future. Check out the feature roadmap post if you haven't already to see stuff that's coming soon, plus a few gifs of features in action: https://steamcommunity.com/app/1564600/discussions/0/2961670721755834442/

I will take a closer look at hunger and thirst though for the coming updates to the game. I think things will be quite different with the new items and materials (such as a clay pot, mug, etc).

Firewood stockpiles are already in the works for the next big update, as well as other potential types of item piles too. Pushable carts as mentioned in the feature roadmap post are coming as well to help alleviate the inventory situation, allowing you to bring back a ton of resources from expeditions. They won't need defending I suppose, but I'll keep iterating around this concept.

Thanks for the clarification around the controller stuff. Rest assured that these controller and UX design points will be figured out in due time.

Man, I'm realizing more and more that the game is way too early stage right now, and a small part of me kind of regrets putting it out there in the state it is in 😂 But it's been great too though because I've validated the fact that my first ever game actually has enough interest around it to make continued work on it worthwhile. There are just so many things I want to add to it to make the experience that much more rich and complete. I think the demo as it stands right now would ideally only be around 10% of the content I envision for the early access release next year. Thanks for taking the time to provide detailed feedback!

[Baz]

I thought hard about how I should articulate that because I didn't want you to get the wrong idea. `Want to` and `need to` are on the same path. I absolutely understand that this is very early access. I think you clearly stated your intentions and it's fine to gather opinions and put the game out there, it's ready for that. Just be careful not to follow every whim and try to please everyone or you will tie yourself in knots. Use people's opinions as a sounding board, but run your own race. I've run large community projects before and burned myself out doing them.. take care of yourself.

What you have is really fun and interesting, and definitely on the way.. so please don't misunderstand, because it could be as simple as the hunger and thirst thing.. adjusting that might just give more time to `get into` the stuff you have and are on your way to building.

It's something that I think about when I'm playing games for the first few times.. I go away and when I come back and boot the computer, I think, what do I want to do.. and some games, I just `need to get back to them` to see what's coming, or to finish doing something.. that sort of qualification is when the game becomes `addictive`.. it's a feeling though, it's not objective. I wouldn't expect it this early anyway.. I just tried to put my finger on why. Anyway, I want to ask some friends what they think and give some more rounded feedback later.

ATM there's a lot of survival games doing the same things, but there's a huge hole in the market, because everyone's bored with them. Valheim is the perfect example, it shows how much people are looking for a cool new survival game.. even unfinished.. like it still is.. it was jumped on hard. It needs to be unique though, and it needs to have elegant solutions to things that are annoying to players of the genre. I think this game is heading in that direction for sure.

I tell you another thing I think you should consider.. some kind of endearing companion pet.. how about a ferret? You catch a ferret, keep it caged and fed for some time and it becomes a companion that will follow you around or pick up and carry, and you can send down a rabbit burrow and catch a rabbit. Survivalists really like something to look after, especially if it's cute :) and to get it early-ish would be a nice hook.

[originalstudios]

Yeah that's fair, so far the game has been a lot of trial and error to see what feels right to me, get a general consensus from feedback, and iterate from there. I'm sure I'll figure out these missing pieces soon enough as long as I keep at it. Creating that addicting feeling from scratch feels so difficult and abstract to me, but I think I have quite a few things to try to help achieve it.

Don't worry though, I am still strongly focused on keeping the core vision of the game intact. The feedback has been amazing for exposing usability issues, new ideas, etc. that I was never even thinking of before. Stuff like adding the "click once to interact" control style was a quick win due to how much of a better experience it adds for so many people that prefer that setting, and it doesn't detract from the core vision at all.

Adding a time speedup feature for crafting/harvesting is probably the biggest concession I've made recently, but only after seeing the point raised many times by a large number of players that otherwise enjoy everything else about the game. I think it's a fair tradeoff to make.

At the end of the day though, my main goal is to make my ideal game that I'd want to play nonstop, and not the next huge hit like Valheim. I know I can't appease everyone, and my main realism design pillar makes things a bit more niche than other titles, but I feel that's totally ok!

A companion creature sounds like a great idea actually, I just worry about all the AI involved for friendly creatures and whatnot. If they get in your way or are otherwise annoying to deal with or stupid and keep endangering themselves, the overall gameplay could get annoying very fast. It's a really tough thing to get fully right. One day!

[Baz]

Something has been niggling at me.. I keep wondering why there is a cure for `The Blight` coming? The Blight seems to be the centre of the game.. if the Blight is cured, the game is resolved. It seems to me that the Blight shouldn't ever be resolved, if anything, it should get worse as you progress. There should be other objectives that can be resolved as the game progresses, but the main theme should remain. Like.. being able to go back into your old village to get something you need or finish something unresolved.

I would foresee discovering more ways to deal with the Blight allowing progression into new map areas / updates. That could go anywhere depending on your imagination, but none of that stands if the Blight is `cured`. You have the first stage down.. just simply avoiding it by walking around visible patches.. but other variants in new map areas might be progressively less visible and require other means of detection and protection? (I think visually, larger thicker patches might look horrible, so I imagine some other feature).

I assumed that the Blight would be a way of inhibiting you from achieving objectives until you had met certain requirements and goals.

[originalstudios]

I see curing the Blight as a definite goal in the game, something that is clear from the very beginning. It's so that people at least know there is something to strive towards, rather than "survive as long as you can" like we see in some other survival games.

The Blight growing and its effects getting worse and worse over time is for sure going to be a huge part to the game. But I feel there has to be some sort of resolution to aim for.

That said, the resolution and/or cure is not going to happen quickly at all. I'm picturing something like 100-200 hours for that to happen. Maybe you need to cure all the villages in the map one by one to slowly fight it back, maybe you need to travel to further parts in the world, something like that, I still need to figure out the exact mechanics.

But I feel strongly that there should be some sort of resolution, even if it takes a large amount of hours. I think back to my time playing No Man's Sky, and focusing on getting to the center of the first galaxy as a great goal for myself, pushing me to keep exploring the game and optimizing the warp drives through tons of scenarios and game mechanics. Took about 140 hours for me in total, but it felt satisfying in the end. I would have stopped playing much earlier if there wasn't such a goal.

But this is the main "story" mode of Blight I'm thinking of, something I'm focusing heavily on now as the flagship experience. I remember someone asking for an eventual separate "endless" mode that could totally be more of a potentially infinite game mode. Could easily add something like that. Would that make sense?