20 Round Magazine Standschütze Hellriegel M1915

[[SRB] Marlo]

Before you say anything, hear me out.

This is one of few threads i will make about ideas i have to Isonzo, about the future content. One of those threads will be about "Quality of Life Improvements".

Lets begin!

Standschütze Hellriegel M1915 is a Austro-Hungarian water-cooled submachine gun made during World War 1 of which is only one prototype known to existed because of only three photographs of it stored in the photo archive of the Austrian National Library. This weapon was named “Maschinengewehr des Standschützen Hellriegel” (literally "Machine gun from reservist Hellriegel").

Here is why adding 20 Round variant of Hellriegel in future to Isonzo would a great idea, but first lets mention Battlefield 1 so you understand where i am coming from with this. Battlefield 1 brought to light in gaming world some of the most obscure firearms known to people, but alongside all the content Battlefield 1 also added something called Codex Entries into the game. Codex Entries are "challenges featured in the singleplayer and multiplayer of Battlefield 1. Upon completion, Codex entries will display real life historical entries related to World War I." Codex Entries are really awesome and they are what made players learn more about The Great War. They can redirect you to researching certain topics, music, books etc. as well as names of the weapon skins in the game (but thats another topic). Isonzo doesnt need Codex Entries since game has already textual information about the The Great War during loading and class progress screens.

Reasons why 20 Round Hellriegel should be in Isonzo :
- Only logical and educational path for Hellriegel is to appear in another popular and great World War 1 game. To have new and unique model and animations for the respective game it will appear in, that being Isonzo.
- Expanding world and immersion of World War 1 in Isonzo
- Variety of Firearms for the game
- Brand new and unique and first ever model of 20 Round Hellriegel for a World War 1 game.
- Redirecting players to take interests in world firearms and weaponry
- WW1 Game Series Devs will do justice to Hellriegel by making it to look and function properly and not making up how the left side of the weapon looked like as DICE did because they didnt bother to model the gun the right way.

Alright now, so how would 20 Round Hellriegel be utilized in this game and what its role would be if it were added. Well Hellriegel although categorized as Sub-Machine Gun, were in fact due to its design supposed to be used and operated like with Chauchat and Browning Automatic Rifle, a light machine gun that could be carried by troops, used in infantry assaults, and capable of suppressive fire. So if it was added, this how it would probably be:

- 20 Round Magazine Hellriegel would be avaliable for Assault class and only could only be available only to 2 players on Austro-Hungarian side.
- Due to Isonzo Roadmap and one of the Devs responses about Beretta 1918; Hellriegel will only be available in late war maps (1917-1918 preferably)
- Hellriegel`s rate of fire was roughly estimated to could have been around 650-850 rounds per minute, but for Isonzo it should be somewhere as Madsen which is 450 rounds per minute opposed to Villar Perosa which is 1200-1500 rounds per minute (and that is per one barrel)
- Recoil should also be roughly as that of Madsen MG
- Reload speed should be around 5 second just as that of Villar Perosa
- Hellriegel was supposed to use 9x23mm Steyr Hahn caliber, so its stopping power should be same as that of Steyr Hahn M1912 Pistol.
- ADS Speed should be between Villar Perosa and Madsen MG, that would be around 0.40 Seconds.
- There should not be a drum magazine variant due to balancing reasons (164 Rounds is a lot and it would be very unfair)

1. Here is the picture of 20 Round Magazine Standschütze Hellriegel M1915:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/59/Brzostrelka_Hellriegel_-_3.jpg/1280px-Brzostrelka_Hellriegel_-_3.jpg

2. Here is a video of Hellriegel replica (non functioning) in Polish:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VyYbn8ZKzY&t=550s

3. Here is Ian McCollum from Forgotten Weapons talking about Hellriegel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkOdwF1_E1A&t=4s

Now that we went over possible way of how to implement 20 Round Magazine Standschütze Hellriegel M1915 in Isonzo, here is my final word for this post.

I am a World War 1 enthusiast and i firearms enjoyer and i am fully aware of respecting history and being historically accurate about these things, but i am also advocating for creative freedom, all in all i am advocating for a fun and enjoyable yet educational experience. Thats why i decided to make this thread and i would like Devs to take this into consideration since Berretta 1918 was available Closed Testing and that means Devs still have place for this weapon in the game. If Hellriegel was added, Isonzo would not turn into some steampunk alternate ww1 game (far from it), it is all for fun and educational purpouses, a enjoyable experience which could be very well balanced out so it does not do any harm to identity of the game and it does not disrespect history and the period the game is set in. I am very sure if you read this to the very end, you would understand where i am coming from and why this would a great idea.

If you came all the way down here, congrats! Thank you so much for taking time and patience to read this to the very end and then decided to discuss in the comments down below.

P.S.: Devs dont dissapoint in next installment if you decide to do Kingdom of Serbia and Salonika Front :D

[Otacon]

No

[The cursed Jäger]

I am gonna break it to you: The Hellriegel will not be added because:

A) Not used in combat.
B) It would not be immersive.
C) Too few made.

Nice meme post.

[[SRB] Marlo]

Originally posted by The cursed Jäger:

I am gonna break it to you: The Hellriegel will not be added because:

A) Not used in combat.
B) It would not be immersive.
C) Too few made.

Nice meme post.

You didnt even read the whole post? Why would you even comment.

[The cursed Jäger]

Originally posted by SRB Marlo Kartel:

You didnt even read the whole post? Why would you even comment.

I did read your whole post. You even said, only one known prototype existed -> Barely any made, thus adding it would not make it more immersive. And whether it saw combat or not is another debate. The Hellriegel simply is Sci-Fi. Adding it is just, no. The Series may have it's historical inaccuraries but we don't have to go the Battlefield route.

[[SRB] Marlo]

Originally posted by The cursed Jäger:

Originally posted by SRB Marlo Kartel:

You didnt even read the whole post? Why would you even comment.

I did read your whole post. You even said, only one known prototype existed -> Barely any made, thus adding it would not make it more immersive. And whether it saw combat or not is another debate. The Hellriegel simply is Sci-Fi. Adding is just, no. The Series may have it's historical inaccuraries but we don't have to go the Battlefield route.

Only one did exist and this 99% confirmed. It did not saw combat use at all, it was probably scrapped or destroyed. It is not Sci-Fi not even a bit, it was actual firing weapon that existed in prototype form at the time The Great War was raging. There is no such thing as "Battlefield route", BF1 is a showcase of tech that existed during WW1, but because creative freedom, all the tech was adapted for the gameplay purpouses so it could be fun and enjoyable, it does not take away from immersion, not even a bit. What takes away bit of immersion from Battlefield 1 is characters designs and certain choices in regards to gear, uniforms, facial hair and race of the characters. Lets say having only one Hellriegel for Assault class be available, that could be in a way a working model that only one soldier of the map has. I made this thread primarily because of information that Berretta 1918 will be added down the line, because it was in Closed Testing.

[Junior]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bf9GshreUAs

[[SRB] Marlo]

Originally posted by Junior:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bf9GshreUAs

I wouldnt even made the post if i was expecting bunch of comments just memeing and writing just "no". Great community.

[The cursed Jäger]

Originally posted by SRB Marlo Kartel:

Only one did exist and this 99% confirmed. It did not saw combat use at all, it was probably scrapped or destroyed. It is not Sci-Fi not even a bit, it was actual firing weapon that existed in prototype form at the time

Why it will not be added.

Originally posted by SRB Marlo Kartel:

Lets say having only one Hellriegel for Assault class be available, that could be in a way a working model that only one soldier of the map has. I made this thread primarily because of information that Berretta 1918 will be added down the line, because it was in Closed Testing.

One Hellriegel too much already. The Hellriegel simply didn't saw combat, was barely made. The Beretta 1918 in BF1 is not even the one that was used during WWI. The WWI version was only semi-automatic, the full-auto version came post-war. BF1 gets lots of stuff wrong, don't use it as a source.

Originally posted by SRB Marlo Kartel:

I wouldnt even made the post if i was expecting bunch of comments just memeing and writing just "no". Great community.

You ask for a weapon that makes no sense to be added.

[Otacon]

Originally posted by SRB Marlo Kartel:

Originally posted by The cursed Jäger:

I did read your whole post. You even said, only one known prototype existed -> Barely any made, thus adding it would not make it more immersive. And whether it saw combat or not is another debate. The Hellriegel simply is Sci-Fi. Adding is just, no. The Series may have it's historical inaccuraries but we don't have to go the Battlefield route.

Only one did exist and this 99% confirmed. It did not saw combat use at all, it was probably scrapped or destroyed. It is not Sci-Fi not even a bit, it was actual firing weapon that existed in prototype form at the time The Great War was raging. There is no such thing as "Battlefield route", BF1 is a showcase of tech that existed during WW1, but because creative freedom, all the tech was adapted for the gameplay purpouses so it could be fun and enjoyable, it does not take away from immersion, not even a bit. What takes away bit of immersion from Battlefield 1 is characters designs and certain choices in regards to gear, uniforms, facial hair and race of the characters. Lets say having only one Hellriegel for Assault class be available, that could be in a way a working model that only one soldier of the map has. I made this thread primarily because of information that Berretta 1918 will be added down the line, because it was in Closed Testing.

Ah yes, a gun that we only have 3 pictures of, no surviving prototypes, no combat use, and only 1 prototype ever made would not break immersion if added. This game is supposed to be historically accurate. Such an addition would take away from both immersion and historical accuracy.

[[SRB] Marlo]

Originally posted by The cursed Jäger:

Originally posted by SRB Marlo Kartel:

Only one did exist and this 99% confirmed. It did not saw combat use at all, it was probably scrapped or destroyed. It is not Sci-Fi not even a bit, it was actual firing weapon that existed in prototype form at the time

Why it will not be added.

That is not an excuse

Originally posted by SRB Marlo Kartel:

Lets say having only one Hellriegel for Assault class be available, that could be in a way a working model that only one soldier of the map has. I made this thread primarily because of information that Berretta 1918 will be added down the line, because it was in Closed Testing.

One Hellriegel too much already. The Hellriegel simply didn't saw combat, was barely made. The Beretta 1918 in BF1 is not even the one that was used during WWI. The WWI version was only semi-automatic, the full-auto version came post-war. BF1 gets lots of stuff wrong, don't use it as a source.

That is why i mentioned Codex Entries and i do know that Beretta that was used was Semi Auto only, double trigger one was Automatic, but didnt saw combat.

Originally posted by SRB Marlo Kartel:

I wouldnt even made the post if i was expecting bunch of comments just memeing and writing just "no". Great community.

You ask for a weapon that makes no sense to be added.

It makes normal sense, it is a weapon made during World War 1.

[The cursed Jäger]

Originally posted by SRB Marlo Kartel:

It makes normal sense, it is a weapon made during World War 1.

Made? Yes. Used? No. The devs will only add weapons that were used in combat in sufficent numbers, the Hellriegel is not one of them. Hence your "More immserion" argument just falls straight down. One per team is already too much. It was a prototype at best, never used in combat. This isn't Battlefield 1.

[[SRB] Marlo]

Originally posted by The cursed Jäger:

Originally posted by SRB Marlo Kartel:

It makes normal sense, it is a weapon made during World War 1.

Made? Yes. Used? No. The devs will only add weapons that were used in combat in sufficent numbers, the Hellriegel is not one of them. Hence your "More immserion" argument just falls straight down. One per team is already too much. It was a prototype at best, never used in combat. This isn't Battlefield 1.

Alright, i guess its settled then. But since Berretta 1918 was in Closed Testing, i am expecting it to be added down the line. There is no reason to cut such content, already fully modelled etc. Hellriegel wasnt even thought of so its alright. My intention wasnt to make this game more arcadey, but simply make it more interesting content wise. I played NWI Games, from Insurgency Source to Sandstorm, with mods and even with weapons in Sandstorm you get to have all sorts of weapons, ones that arent even accessible to militants and fighters in Middle East and some that are prototypes and commercial only in USA. So does that brake immersion in Middle Eastern setting of Insurgency, it kinda does if you ask certain people, i can get over it as long as firearms are done right and with respect. Thats it for this. Next threads will be less laughable if you consider this one. I was dissapointed that Fedorov wasnt in Tannenberg, even tho it was used in Romania in 1917.

[Bishop]

Thanks for taking the time for such a detailed thread, sorry the responses weren't what you hoped for.

Part of the issue here is this isn't that type of series. It's why there's backlash against BF1 elements, Isonzo and the WW1 series goes the historical route. BF1 got a lot of things wrong, even on their historical "factuals" and the equipment even more so.

So suggesting a weapon be added that didn't see use is the opposite of what the series is going for. The idea for the educational side for the game is to actually educate about elements of WW1, prototype weapons that have no real details on aren't really something to cover for it. This is also why some people just say no, it's not the first time it's came up thanks in general to BF1 which has given some people the wrong idea of weapons from the war.

The Fedorov runs in to the similar grounds, although at least a handful were given to the army, only ever been able to track down a source showing 8 being issued and no reports survive on their performance in the offensive. General numbers would have more in a single match than was made during WW1 so understandable why it wasn't covered.

[Junior]

Originally posted by SRB Marlo Kartel:

Originally posted by Junior:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bf9GshreUAs

I wouldnt even made the post if i was expecting bunch of comments just memeing and writing just "no". Great community.

Seems a bit unfair to blame the hole community for my bad taste in humor

But I did think the mods did just finde with details as to why not...