Drivatars make no sense

[ZombieHunter]

I did several tests and the times the AI are putting down don't make any sense. So I started on above average and ran the race as normal and the fastest time was like 2:33 and I came in 4th with 2:34 or something.

Then I put the race on pro and did not run it. I parked the car and waited till the AI was done. Then I ran the race and finished at about 7 minutes. The fastest time on Pro was 2:45 and change. So then I ramped it up to unbeatable and ran the race but made sure to stay in the back and not push it. The fastest time was 2:35. Then I ran it again and did not run the race at all and just parked. Then after they finished I drove it slowly and put finished in 6 minutes or so. The fastest time was 2:34.

So let me get this straight. When I ran 4th on above average the fastest time was 2:33 and mine was 2:34 for 4th. But when I put it on unbeatable and did not compete in the race the fastest time was 2:34 which is 1 second slower than the fastest time on above average when I was actually competing? My time for 4th on above average was the fastest AI time on unbeatable when I didn't even try.

Something isn't right.

[loppantorkel]

There are catchup and slowdown mechanics in the game. Unbeatable is tougher to win compared to 'above average' which is the general idea. No need to compare times as they serve little to no purpose.

Drivatars make sense as far as SP competition goes. It's by no means perfect.

[kireta]

Originally posted by ZombieHunter:

Something isn't right.

On top of normal Forza AI things, FH5 added additional level of rubberbanding, where they recieve speed boosts and penalties depending on their relatitve position to player.
Why so obvious and obnoxious design? No one knows. My guess is it was placeholder mechanic until they had more feedback on AI vs players in new FH5 physics, and later decided they don't care enough about SP to finish it.

And difference can be massive. To test it I ran same race twice on Unbeatable, in OP car. Then restarted so cars and AI profiles assigned to them stay the same:
First race I obediently stayed out of podium, finishing in 2:59.
Fastest AI was 2:56, Slowest AI was 3:07
Then I smoked them without mercy, completing in 2:38
Fastest AI was 2:46, Slowest AI was 2:51

Despite using exactly same cars under exactly same conditions, the slowest AI in second race was still faster than the fastest AI in 1st race, recieving tons of boost simply because they couldn't keep up with me.

[ZombieHunter]

This is my first Forza. If I had known it was like NFS levels of rubber banding I would probably not have purchased. I don't mind tougher opponents if it is legit b/c then I can build up my car and my skills and knowledge of the track to get better. But if it is a system where I go faster they go faster that there isn't any reason to upgrade a car or skills and makes most of the game a moot point beyond just cruising around.

I need to try this on F1 series and see if this occurs. I'm pretty sure if I run hard and get a good lap time the AI lap times will be close to or exactly the same as if I simply choose not to run the race. And F1 isn't exactly sim but more simcade.

The reason I did the test is I saw cars dive bombing into corners with insane grip without touching the brakes and if I followed their line and I clearly had more aero and grip than them I could not hold their line. I saw them heading into 90 degree hairpins without touching the brakes once. I saw them suddenly boost up behind me on a section of track when I'm flat out at the top of 6th or 7th in cars that could never have that much speed. I also see them failing to respect my line which is really poor driving. They also never spin out and never produce tire smoke from over driving corners or taking the wrong line. It is laughable levels of ridiculous.

[TheHuskyGT]

It's more than just a ridiculous rubberband effect. Racing as hard as I can in any difficulty (Highly Skilled to Unbeatable), I've noticed if some of the A.I cars crash or get behind almost half the track, before the race ends, they somehow miraculously end up back in the pack an just two or three laps. I check the times after the race, and they are putting laps of up to 15 seconds faster than it is possible.

In some occasions, if the A.I decides you will not win, it will be literally impossible to catch up to them. Almost as if they car goes from B Class to S2 out of nowhere.

There is that, and then there is how A.I arbitrarily ignores physics and terrain just to gain on you. I absolutely HATE Forza's A.I. It is by far the worst of all Forzas. But it's better than dealing with rammers, to be honest.

[ZombieHunter]

The racing for sure is not very fun. But the rest of the game is enjoyable. They hand out XP and Accolades like candy for doing nothing. If you crash into stuff you get XP. If you don't you get XP. You get Accolades by pretty much just doing races even if you don't win and by doing the expeditions. It is a shame they coded the AI as they did and then claim they use players as examples. No way. Rivals is a lot more fun and fair and you can clearly see how the AI should behave given how other human ghosts are behaving. The human rivals often don't take the corners perfectly or misjudge a portion of the track. They might slowly gain on you and then you are faster in a section or slower. Just like racing should be. There is no way a car is just going to magically go from being behind you to way ahead when you have the gas on the floor and the cars are evenly matched.

It is pretty obvious to anyone who has played any kind of racing be it pure arcade, simcade or pure sim that the AI is playing by its own rules in this game. The problem with it is it does not encourage people to get better or modify their car or learn the tracks. Rather it is annoying and it is simply easier to put it on lower difficulty than put up with lap times that get better as you get better regardless of the difficulty setting.

According to my lap times I should come in first on unbeatable. But if I really tried on unbeatable the AI would magically have way better lap times.

[loppantorkel]

Originally posted by ZombieHunter:

The racing for sure is not very fun. But the rest of the game is enjoyable. They hand out XP and Accolades like candy for doing nothing. If you crash into stuff you get XP. If you don't you get XP. You get Accolades by pretty much just doing races even if you don't win and by doing the expeditions. It is a shame they coded the AI as they did and then claim they use players as examples. No way. Rivals is a lot more fun and fair and you can clearly see how the AI should behave given how other human ghosts are behaving. The human rivals often don't take the corners perfectly or misjudge a portion of the track. They might slowly gain on you and then you are faster in a section or slower. Just like racing should be. There is no way a car is just going to magically go from being behind you to way ahead when you have the gas on the floor and the cars are evenly matched.

It is pretty obvious to anyone who has played any kind of racing be it pure arcade, simcade or pure sim that the AI is playing by its own rules in this game. The problem with it is it does not encourage people to get better or modify their car or learn the tracks. Rather it is annoying and it is simply easier to put it on lower difficulty than put up with lap times that get better as you get better regardless of the difficulty setting.

According to my lap times I should come in first on unbeatable. But if I really tried on unbeatable the AI would magically have way better lap times.

You've found some flaws of the game. It's a very flawed game. It's also a very large game. I agree, the progression system sucks, it's extremely arcadey in some ways, the AI could be improved, etc, etc.

...but there are ways to have some moderate entertainment from the game. The Rivals is a good way to challenge yourself, trying different cars and tuning them included. The Festival playlist can be something to push you to do some events, with the Trial being a highlight - playing in a temporary team and beat the AIs. Horizon Open can be a decent experience now and then too. The point is that the game is big enough to provide some, but perhaps flawed, entertainment in some areas. Not a great game, it's very flawed, but overall pretty good. Just got to find and focus on the better parts.