Rubberbanding AI is completely insane in FH5 compared to FH4

[Krosis]

I've been playing the game for a little over 10 hrs now, while having sunk probably over 500 hrs into FH4 (through the windows store). And bloody hell what did they do to the AI. I know the AI already had comical levels of grip and acceleration in FH4, but in FH5 it's just completely nuts. And this becomes more and more obvious the higher class car you use.

In FH4 I found S1 class to be the most fun and balanced class to use and could win races easily on pro difficulty, and depending on the circuit even on unbeatable. But in FH5 however, I can't even keep up on expert difficulty, as the AI cars just rocket away on the start line and proceed to corner with impossible amounts of grip. On top of that, they always seem to have like a 60 mph higher top speed which they reach in an instant.

The only class which I find to be enjoyable and somewhat balanced right now is A(800). As I can gain enough on the AI in the corners to usually win by the end of the race. But even on A class, the AI cars accelerate like rocketships and always seem to be impossibly fast for their car rating.

Now having played sim racing games through all of my life, I dare to say that I know what I'm doing when it comes to adjusting the geometry, suspension and gearing. So I know my tuning is not at fault here.

This has to be fixed somehow because S1 class and above are completely unenjoyable in this state.

Edit:
For anyone saying oh you're just bad at the game. Being top 1% (5337th out of 1.000.000+ players) in the monthly rivals after a few laps should be good enough right?

(03-12-2021) Update:
So I tried the game out for a couple of hours now after the latest update, and I do seem to notice some changes (or maybe it's placebo effect). Seems like on some races the AI seems to be a bit toned down, and quite beatable even on the unbeatable difficulty now. I noticed that the massive acceleration boost at the start of the race seems to be less severe, as I am now launching at a similar speed. However, the top 3 cars will still gain a massive lead on the rest of the pack, and I often find myself only being able to overtake the leader near the final corners of the race on short races.

I think it differs a lot from race to race, so I can't say for sure if it has been changed at all, or if I am just imagining things. But I've now been playing on unbeatable difficulty all evening, and won 80% of my races. So I'd say check it out yourselves, and post your findings here. Did you find the AI to be more fair after the latest update, or does it still seem the same to you?

[Krosis]

Początkowo opublikowane przez lolschrauber:

Początkowo opublikowane przez CunkFeatures:

I love the difficulty settings, and for these cars to be harder to race. X should be hard, A should be easy.

Nothing worse than having high PI cars driving better than my irl Fiesta, or having the hardest level being so easy to beat.

See what the AI is doing, no tire marks, you seriously have no chance unless you're a F1 driver.

Yeah, this time around, on highest difficulty, you not only need to be good, you need perfectly tuned meta cars.

Początkowo opublikowane przez N0xEterniS:

Hey, I wanted to call you all some very bad words, but instead I invite you all to make a video about the AI, show us your settings and how you drive, the difficulty, tune, so we can all see if it's really the ai OR YOU.. eh ? I'm having no problems with the ai, other than they slow down for no reason sometimes, I've already made multiple videos where I race against unbeatable ai using AWD and RWD, Street and Cross country, and right now I'm making one on Dirt.
Krosis, make a video man, show us where the ai ''cheats'', same goes for [STG] Dante.
There is no rubberband in this game, i've said it before on reddit as well and I got downvoted by screenshot lovers who get rekt by novice Ai.

They don't rubber band traditionally, but they get game-logic-defying speed boosts. Usually between 1-3 cars at the front, the rest is absolutely slow.

Yeah exactly this. It seems like if you want to have any chance of winning in S1 or above you need to use meta cars now. Which yeah, might even make it possible to win on unbeatable difficulty, because simply put, these cars are also broken and unbalanced. Just like the AI.

[N0xEterniS]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Krosis:

Początkowo opublikowane przez N0xEterniS:

Hey, I wanted to call you all some very bad words, but instead I invite you all to make a video about the AI, show us your settings and how you drive, the difficulty, tune, so we can all see if it's really the ai OR YOU.. eh ? I'm having no problems with the ai, other than they slow down for no reason sometimes, I've already made multiple videos where I race against unbeatable ai using AWD and RWD, Street and Cross country, and right now I'm making one on Dirt.
Krosis, make a video man, show us where the ai ''cheats'', same goes for [STG] Dante.
There is no rubberband in this game, i've said it before on reddit as well and I got downvoted by screenshot lovers who get rekt by novice Ai.

First of all, thank you for staying respectful. I'm not here to fight with people on the internet, I just want to be able to enjoy FH5 just like anyone else. But I just checked your videos because I am willing to believe you. But the first thing I see is meta car after meta car. So you are not proving my point wrong, you are actually enforcing it. Because it's only possible to win by using meta cars... Which I don't see how that can be fun or enjoyable at all. I can try to make a video to demonstrate if you really want me to, but it will most likely have to wait until the weekend.

I guess if it's not the AI, then it's the cars, if it's not the cars then it's the tunes, if it's not the tunes then it's the people who play 12h per day, if it's not the people then it's controler/keyboard/wheel, if it's not that then it's the high FPS and Hz, if it's not that then it's cheating, if it's not that then....

[TheSmilingDoom]

Just wanted to say i agree with OP, and it is really obvious in the game. S2 and X are a nightmare on Pro and Unbeatable (never a fan of X in the first place). I had cars gapping me that shouldn't be able to do so (like a Senna against a ~1.100hp Lambo Veneno on a straight!) No rubberbanding, haha, yeah more like rubberrodding, because they get pushed in front of you!

[N0xEterniS]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Krosis:

Początkowo opublikowane przez N0xEterniS:

Hey, I wanted to call you all some very bad words, but instead I invite you all to make a video about the AI, show us your settings and how you drive, the difficulty, tune, so we can all see if it's really the ai OR YOU.. eh ? I'm having no problems with the ai, other than they slow down for no reason sometimes, I've already made multiple videos where I race against unbeatable ai using AWD and RWD, Street and Cross country, and right now I'm making one on Dirt.
Krosis, make a video man, show us where the ai ''cheats'', same goes for [STG] Dante.
There is no rubberband in this game, i've said it before on reddit as well and I got downvoted by screenshot lovers who get rekt by novice Ai.

First of all, thank you for staying respectful. I'm not here to fight with people on the internet, I just want to be able to enjoy FH5 just like anyone else. But I just checked your videos because I am willing to believe you. But the first thing I see is meta car after meta car. So you are not proving my point wrong, you are actually enforcing it. Because it's only possible to win by using meta cars... Which I don't see how that can be fun or enjoyable at all. I can try to make a video to demonstrate if you really want me to, but it will most likely have to wait until the weekend.

Lancer GSR WP is not a meta car.
Ferrari F40C is not a meta car here, it is a meta car in FH4 for s2 dry sprints.
Daytona is not meta here, it is in FH4 in B summer dirt.
BMW M5 '88 is not a meta car.
So, ''meta car after meta car'', eh ?

[Zero McDol]

The AI will out pace meta cars just as easily as it outpaces every other car, so it really doesn't matter which car is used in a race; the result is the same. I ran the Sesto Elemento FE at S2, got beat on Unbeatable - no contest, got beat on Pro - AI maintaining a very annoying, should be catchable distance no matter what I did, for 15 freaking laps. If I closed the distance and got within sight of the AI, then the AI got a mysterious accel boost.

If I'm lucky, I can maintain a lead long enough to win with the Sesto FE at X class, however that really depends on how much that the AI feels like cheating in which race.

I won't even go there with how much that the AI cheats in Drag Races.

I mean, if Turn 10 wanted to build a AI game for the AI to race against themselves then why didn't they just, do that. I don't really see where, the player, fits in to Horizon 5; other than being obvious cannon fodder for the AI.

[Krosis]

Początkowo opublikowane przez N0xEterniS:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Krosis:

First of all, thank you for staying respectful. I'm not here to fight with people on the internet, I just want to be able to enjoy FH5 just like anyone else. But I just checked your videos because I am willing to believe you. But the first thing I see is meta car after meta car. So you are not proving my point wrong, you are actually enforcing it. Because it's only possible to win by using meta cars... Which I don't see how that can be fun or enjoyable at all. I can try to make a video to demonstrate if you really want me to, but it will most likely have to wait until the weekend.

I guess if it's not the AI, then it's the cars, if it's not the cars then it's the tunes, if it's not the tunes then it's the people who play 12h per day, if it's not the people then it's controler/keyboard/wheel, if it's not that then it's the high FPS and Hz, if it's not that then it's cheating, if it's not that then....

You can literally see the impossible grip levels of the AI in your own videos. And I don't even see why you're defending this game now when you literally agree with me in your own steam review. I quote: "They cheat. Simple as that. They don't get more acceleration or speed than you, grip.. a lot more grip than you"

[N0xEterniS]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Krosis:

Początkowo opublikowane przez N0xEterniS:

I guess if it's not the AI, then it's the cars, if it's not the cars then it's the tunes, if it's not the tunes then it's the people who play 12h per day, if it's not the people then it's controler/keyboard/wheel, if it's not that then it's the high FPS and Hz, if it's not that then it's cheating, if it's not that then....

You can literally see the impossible grip levels of the AI in your own videos. And I don't even see why you're defending this game now when you literally agree with me in your own steam review. I quote: "They cheat. Simple as that. They don't get more acceleration or speed than you, grip.. a lot more grip than you"

I'm not defending the entire game, it's trash at the moment, ''a lot more grip than you'' I'm just referring to mid corner speed, entry corner speed seems fine and the exit as well but carrying the entry corner speed into mid corner seems 'wot' sometimes..

[John Hunter]

It's interesting how they developed a drivatar system for realistic AI but then they somehow did something that makes it unrealistic. All they have to do is make the harder difficulties drive similar to the best players.

[Zylenxx]

On honest notes the ai does gain an unfair advantage when setting the drivatar difficulty to Unbeatable. I have noticed on multiple occasions that especially in A top class a same
model and vehicle as mine can perform basically the same until i gain a half second advantage in which they skyrocket past me for the next few corners. But only on that difficulty have i found such things. These also scale up for higher classes but its very noticable going 190 out of a corner when an aero-less stock seeming version of the same model speeds past at 250 (numbers in KPH, do not get confused). Ive kind of taken that as a way of "making singleplayer/solo events more demanding" so idk. I do like rubberbanding to some extend though. It puts some pressure on you at all times and therefor keeps your awareness up. (When its not speeding past you 80% faster than you at the same or even lower class level.)

Początkowo opublikowane przez lolschrauber:

Yeah, this time around, on highest difficulty, you not only need to be good, you need perfectly tuned meta cars.

[> multiple quotes here < ]

They don't rubber band traditionally, but they get game-logic-defying speed boosts. Usually between 1-3 cars at the front, the rest is absolutely slow.

[Zero McDol]

Początkowo opublikowane przez John Hunter:

It's interesting how they developed a drivatar system for realistic AI but then they somehow did something that makes it unrealistic. All they have to do is make the harder difficulties drive similar to the best players.

Pretty much this. There's no need to give the AI a artificial boost, or artificially enhanced grip. Take the fastest drivers in this game, that aren't using cheats because we now know that this is a thing, and base the drivatar on their run times and driving. Simple and will give a very clear and real goal to work towards.

Of course, the other difficulties will still have to be toned down. Right now the AI is ridiculous on all but tourist level and it isn't accounting for new players - players that drive with stock settings - players with slower builds - etc.

I've already seen one guy in a vid get completely trolled by the AI at above average, this shouldn't be happening.

[Stabbity]

Początkowo opublikowane przez N0xEterniS:

Hey, I wanted to call you all some very bad words, but instead I invite you all to make a video about the AI, show us your settings and how you drive, the difficulty, tune, so we can all see if it's really the ai OR YOU.. eh ? I'm having no problems with the ai, other than they slow down for no reason sometimes, I've already made multiple videos where I race against unbeatable ai using AWD and RWD, Street and Cross country, and right now I'm making one on Dirt.
Krosis, make a video man, show us where the ai ''cheats'', same goes for [STG] Dante.
There is no rubberband in this game, i've said it before on reddit as well and I got downvoted by screenshot lovers who get rekt by novice Ai.

I was doing a Tour. I'm in the middle of the pack where the lead player is pulling far ahead. What happened next was wild to witness (to me). I was on a straight where I and 3 ai cars were going full speed. If they were faster they could have passed me easily but they were juuuuuuuust catching up to me. Then, suddenly, they blew by me with some kind of nitrous boost adding 50mph to their speed. That is rubberbanding, has to be.

Again, they were slowly closing, then some switch was flipped and they flew by.

[n3mes1s]

Początkowo opublikowane przez d0x360:

No offense but that sounds like it's all on you.

Its not. The AI does that randomly depending in many situations. Eventually you can catch up with them if you are a decent driver because the AI will slow down eventually in later states of the race. But not too much...

[Acidic__Thought]

Początkowo opublikowane przez John Hunter:

It's interesting how they developed a drivatar system for realistic AI but then they somehow did something that makes it unrealistic. All they have to do is make the harder difficulties drive similar to the best players.

The drivatar system has been fake from the beginning. It wound up just being their fancy name for normal bots with names from your friends list.

[Sysgen]

Ug, again? The AI does not cheat nor is given any rubber banding instructions to catch up to you though if you suffer a catastrophic crash in solo the AI tune will change (such as added car weight) to allow YOU to be able to make some ground up. As said they have tunes appropriate to the difficulty level. That's it. The driveatars driving the cars have no knowledge of anything other than what they have learned through cloud based A.I. learning system across many Forza games. The higher levels are a more challenging than FH4 which in many cases was a joke.

An example: To test a tune I start on Pro, I used to start on Unbeatable in FH4, so I am near the back of the pack and I ensure the A.I. does not rocket past me and I can stay with the leader. If you don't have the skills to start at Pro do the same a lower difficulty. Ultimately I have never found a race where I could not stay with the leader except Cross Country where the wide open nature of race makes skill a larger priority and the races can be extremely difficult.

@OP Think everything in FH4 was so fair. Go setup a Cross Country race with all Warthogs on Unbeatable and see what happens.

[Zero McDol]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Sysgen:

Ug, again? The AI does not cheat nor is given any rubber banding instructions to catch up to you though if you suffer a catastrophic crash in solo the AI tune will change (such as added car weight) to allow YOU to be able to make some ground up. As said they have tunes appropriate to the difficulty level. That's it. The driveatars driving the cars have no knowledge of anything other than what they have learned through cloud based A.I. learning system across many Forza games. The higher levels are a more challenging than FH4 which in many cases was a joke.

An example: To test a tune I start on Pro, I used to start on Unbeatable in FH4, so I am near the back of the pack and I ensure the A.I. does not rocket past me and I can stay with the leader. If you don't have the skills to start at Pro do the same a lower difficulty. Ultimately I have never found a race where I could not stay with the leader except Cross Country where the wide open nature of race makes skill a larger priority and the races can be extremely difficult.

@OP Think everything in FH4 was so fair. Go setup a Cross Country race with all Warthogs on Unbeatable and see what happens.

You can say this a thousand times dude; doesn't make it true, especially when many of us have both video proof and experiences dealing with a blatantly cheating AI.

I get that you like this game; I do as well, but I won't ignore the obvious. Also, have you seen the rating of this game in the MS store (?), a huge chunk of complaints are aimed at the cheating AI that Turn 10 implemented.