is this game p2w? is it f2p? what does that mean

[Hormesis]

the answer is no to both and here's why

in order for a game to be considered p2w it would need to fulfill the winning condition for all players through monetary transactions. however not everyone has the same winning conditions. as a consumer i choose to purchase a game based largely on the entertainment value i'll receive as a result of said transaction. the more time i'm entertained by the use of that purchase, the greater the value. furthermore, the metric by which i measure if i'm "winning" exists independent of other players. so if i'm ahead or behind other people in the pursuit of their winning conditions, is irrelevant. for me to "win" in a game i need only receive sufficient cognitive stimulation over a sufficient period of time. by purchasing items that can be received through normal game play i actually decrease the value the game can offer thereby creating a losing condition.

so no, this game is not p2w for me and as a result the game ITSELF cannot be considered p2w. but for those out there competing in a pissing contest w/ random nerds online, it very well could be.

it's also not f2p, and no game is actually free. sure in a monetary sense a game can be considered free, however it will cost you time, the most precision resource you'll ever be given or you'll ever spend. the people who think they are playing this game for free, are deluded.

[Hormesis]

gamingmikan の投稿を引用：

The definition of P2W has changed or evolved in the past 15 years.
Back then, anything that gave extra stats or had an advantage over others that sold in the cash shop would instantly be called P2W.

But that's not the case now.
Now everyone has their own definition of P2W, especially young generation gamers.
Instead of P2W, they called it pay for convenience or pay to fast.

As for whether is this game P2W or not, is solely up to the individual to decide.

now that's the tl;dr

[Taiji]

gamingmikan の投稿を引用：

The definition of P2W has changed or evolved in the past 15 years.
Back then, anything that gave extra stats or had an advantage over others that sold in the cash shop would instantly be called P2W.

But that's not the case now.
Now everyone has their own definition of P2W, especially young generation gamers.
Instead of P2W, they called it pay for convenience or pay to fast.

As for whether is this game P2W or not, is solely up to the individual to decide.

It's the other way around. P2W games used to be ones where you could buy an advantage over others in PVP. These days it's usually just the rallying cry of spoilt brats who can't stand F2P games not giving them more for free.

[wespe___o=/;;;:*]

iTriHard の投稿を引用：

i apologize. wasn't trying to be mean. guess it's just a difference in where we grew up. some of the things you write seem foreign to me so i assumed a language gap.
y no, soy no latino, pero comprendo much en espanol y un poco en portuguese.

no se preocupe
Btw, my comment didn´t really contradict your post. Maybe I should have written more than one line though. And you´re right about regional differences even of the same language, esp. when it comes to English. Gotta say some Aussies and UK folks are harder to understand than Rednecks, still I try my best and fairly happy that I´ve seen several countries instead of just one place plus the 50miles around.

iTriHard の投稿を引用：

gamingmikan の投稿を引用：

As for whether is this game P2W or not, is solely up to the individual to decide.

now that's the tl;dr

Taiji の投稿を引用：

It's the other way around. P2W games used to be ones where you could buy an advantage over others in PVP. These days it's usually just the rallying cry of spoilt brats who can't stand F2P games not giving them more for free.

Which is not the case here as UNDECEMBER has several mechanics that put F2P into a horrible disadvantage, which leads to masses leaving around Act10/Endgame. I´m not talking about hardcore semi-F2P with initial Investment or those farming 12-16hours /day, but the regular casual F2P players that play maybe 10-15 hours/week.
PS: I wouldn´t even call all 16hours F2P "nolives" as many make money from RMT, some Youtube/Twitch. Still, currently this game fails to bind the masses midterm.

[Pelerin]

I'll copy my comment from the other thread:

I don't think there needs to be PvP, competitive elements or a particular win state to consider something P2W.

People are taking the term literally and being pedantic about it.

To me, P2W is the ability to either directly purchase power or the ability to pay to make it easier and/or quicker to acquire that power.

I know for sure a lot of people don't agree with my take on it, for example I consider the stash space and pet P2W - where others would say P2Convenience.

But to me, that convenience allows the accumulation of power quicker and easier - compared to someone who doesn't have it.

I'll put it like this: the example of someone with more free time vs someone with less time - but money to invest, in order to keep up with those with more playtime.

How is that not P2W? The person with money is using it to keep pace with somone who is only playing the game.

In a game without cash-shop features, the playing field is even and those who invest the time and effort are rewarded appropriately in relation to those with less playtime.

That's the baseline for a normal non-P2W game, play to win as people put it nowawdays - which, before the inclusion of cash shop features, was the norm.

Now, I don't mind it, because my enjoyment isn't related to the experience of others - I'm having my own fun, however I do consider this game P2W in a multitude of ways.

I hope what I'm expressing makes sense - and I'm not saying my take is the correct one - but that's just my personal view on it.

[Tyrone Biggums]

i disagree on not f2p u can do act 1-10 f2p and play for story if you want and get a full experience its only really post act 10 where i spent money for storage

[Taiji]

wespe___o=/:* の投稿を引用：

Taiji の投稿を引用：

It's the other way around. P2W games used to be ones where you could buy an advantage over others in PVP. These days it's usually just the rallying cry of spoilt brats who can't stand F2P games not giving them more for free.

Which is not the case here as UNDECEMBER has several mechanics that put F2P into a horrible disadvantage, which leads to masses leaving around Act10/Endgame. I´m not talking about hardcore semi-F2P with initial Investment or those farming 12-16hours /day, but the regular casual F2P players that play maybe 10-15 hours/week.
PS: I wouldn´t even call all 16hours F2P "nolives" as many make money from RMT, some Youtube/Twitch. Still, currently this game fails to bind the masses midterm.

Past the storyline it's not a game for the masses though - It's a niche game. The main content is tiny incremental improvements for your character - Achieved by doing the same thing over and over. So it's not just the monetisation that some folks will find off-putting.

If you're F2P and you don't have much time, the game won't be very rewarding to play.

But if you have a job you can buy your way into some of those incremental improvements and feel your power growing approximately like a F2P with a lot of time.

And if you're just rich and have a lot of time, the leaderboards can also be a serious part of your content. Encouraging you to keep the game's costs paid - And help make the profits the game was designed to make.

[Matt]

LMAO a lot of kids high on copium here bleating about how this isn't P2W, happens a lot in P2W games where people are embarrassed about what they spent or spent above their means and are suffering buyers remorse, I'll assume that's what is happening here too.

P2W is not literally 'winning' - although resurrection scrolls are just that. P2W is paying to increase your characters power or buy/improve your gear. It doesn't actually matter if you can do the same for free, that's limited by time available where as P2W power is only limited by what you spend. Ignoring the cosmetics and stash space which aren't direct player power let's see what we have available to buy with real money

Resurrection scrolls - literal P2W, you suck too hard to beat a boss, never mind just use enough res scrolls.
Elixirs - direct character power increase. Doesn't matter if you personally use them or not, top players will be using them the whole time they are farming -P2W
Crafting materials - increase your gear's power = P2W
Rune crafting materials - obvious P2W
AH currency - with this you can directly buy gear or statues to sell for gold needed for upgrading skills etc. - P2W

It's impossible to deny this game is P2W

[Matt]

Taiji の投稿を引用：

Past the storyline it's not a game for the masses though - It's a niche game. The main content is tiny incremental improvements for your character - Achieved by doing the same thing over and over. So it's not just the monetisation that some folks will find off-putting.

If you're F2P and you don't have much time, the game won't be very rewarding to play.

But if you have a job you can buy your way into some of those incremental improvements and feel your power growing approximately like a F2P with a lot of time.

And if you're just rich and have a lot of time, the leaderboards can also be a serious part of your content.

Congratulations, you summed up P2W pretty well.

[Taiji]

Matt の投稿を引用：

Taiji の投稿を引用：

Past the storyline it's not a game for the masses though - It's a niche game. The main content is tiny incremental improvements for your character - Achieved by doing the same thing over and over. So it's not just the monetisation that some folks will find off-putting.

If you're F2P and you don't have much time, the game won't be very rewarding to play.

But if you have a job you can buy your way into some of those incremental improvements and feel your power growing approximately like a F2P with a lot of time.

And if you're just rich and have a lot of time, the leaderboards can also be a serious part of your content.

Congratulations, you summed up P2W pretty well.

Then do you agree that P2W, by your definition, is not a bad thing??
I am guessing you do think it is a bad thing, but also that you can't justify your opinion.

[Matt]

You appear to have shifted the goalposts away from whether this game is P2W or not to is P2W a bad thing. But yes P2W is bad, do you not see how a game balanced around credit card warriors is bad? Besides history proves that more and more P2W elements will creep in, so not only do you need to pay, you need to keep paying repeatedly. Those people who just spent the price of a AAA game on a few stash tabs thinking that's enough will be in for a shock later.

[Taiji]

Matt の投稿を引用：

This is a thread about whether this game is P2W or not, try and keep on topic. But yes P2W is bad, do you not see how a game balanced around credit card warriors is bad? Besides history proves that more and more P2W elements will creep in, so not only do you need to pay, you need to keep paying repeatedly. Those people who just spent $60 on a few stash tabs thinking that's enough will be in for a shock later.

I know, I am managing to keep on topic very well.
Since you say you care about that, don't try to divert by pretending your definition of P2W is the only one that counts.

You think it is bad to have rich people pay more of the running costs of the game. You think this because to you it means the game will be designed to serve them at the expense of others enjoyment. But it's plain to see that you don't take into account that those rich people are financing others enjoyment. - You appear to resent them instead of being thankful.

Certainly the game ought to be more enjoyable for those contribute more. But it also has to be enjoyable enough for others, so that those who contribute more feel like there is a community for the game. And so that's where you are wrong - Serving the bigger contributors automatically implies serving even those who make no contribution and deserve nothing.

When it comes to issues where someone's lack of research, or wishful thinking, has them wind up spending more money than they had wrongfully assumed they needed to spend - Why do you absolve them of all responsibility for that?

[Matt]

Taiji の投稿を引用：

Matt の投稿を引用：

This is a thread about whether this game is P2W or not, try and keep on topic. But yes P2W is bad, do you not see how a game balanced around credit card warriors is bad? Besides history proves that more and more P2W elements will creep in, so not only do you need to pay, you need to keep paying repeatedly. Those people who just spent $60 on a few stash tabs thinking that's enough will be in for a shock later.

I know, I am managing to keep on topic very well.
Since you say you care about that, don't try to divert by pretending your definition of P2W is the only one that counts.

You think it is bad to have rich people pay more of the running costs of the game. You think this because to you it means the game will be designed to serve them at the expense of others enjoyment. But it's plain to see that you don't take into account that those rich people are financing others enjoyment. - You appear to resent them instead of being thankful.

Certainly the game ought to be more enjoyable for those contribute more. But it also has to be enjoyable enough for others, so that those who contribute more feel like there is a community for the game. And so that's where you are wrong - Serving the bigger contributors automatically implies serving even those who make no contribution and deserve nothing.

When it comes to issues where someone's lack of research, or wishful thinking, has them wind up spending more money than they had wrongfully assumed they needed to spend - Why do you absolve them of all responsibility for that?

You could just Google what is pay to win and you'll see that my definition matches the generally accepted definition. That's irrelevant though, you also accept this game is P2W. Success in a game should be about how skilful you are at it and not how much power you bought with real money, enjoy your credit card warrioring.

[Hormesis]

Matt の投稿を引用：

You saying the same thing over and over

so what i've gathered from your posts is this. in order to rdetermine what P2W means i should google the term. i should then proceed to find the definition of the term that best fits my narrative. w/ that definition firm in hand i should defend it as vehemently as possible, never accepting another definition that undermines it.

*insert sheep sound effect here*

the term P2W has largely been defined by the same group of enlightened people who bring to the table gems like, you're a noob if you've not invested the requisite time to be better than me, and a no-lifer if you've invested enough time to be better than me. therefore you'll have to excuse me if i interpret the term in a more logical way

tell me, are you a trump supporter? really not trying to derail this topic, and i could easily see what you'd interpret that statement as an ad hominem, but your inability to accept logic when it's right in front of you screams trumptard and/or religious nutjob

Pelerin の投稿を引用：

I'll copy my comment from the other thread:

I don't think there needs to be PvP, competitive elements or a particular win state to consider something P2W.

People are taking the term literally and being pedantic about it.

To me, P2W is the ability to either directly purchase power or the ability to pay to make it easier and/or quicker to acquire that power.

I know for sure a lot of people don't agree with my take on it, for example I consider the stash space and pet P2W - where others would say P2Convenience.

But to me, that convenience allows the accumulation of power quicker and easier - compared to someone who doesn't have it.

I'll put it like this: the example of someone with more free time vs someone with less time - but money to invest, in order to keep up with those with more playtime.

How is that not P2W? The person with money is using it to keep pace with somone who is only playing the game.

In a game without cash-shop features, the playing field is even and those who invest the time and effort are rewarded appropriately in relation to those with less playtime.

That's the baseline for a normal non-P2W game, play to win as people put it nowawdays - which, before the inclusion of cash shop features, was the norm.

Now, I don't mind it, because my enjoyment isn't related to the experience of others - I'm having my own fun, however I do consider this game P2W in a multitude of ways.

I hope what I'm expressing makes sense - and I'm not saying my take is the correct one - but that's just my personal view on it.

how else am i supposed to define the term besides literally? isn't that the aim of a definition?

i think your desire to separate p2w from p2convenience best illustrates where our definitions diverge. you don't seem to value time the same way that i do. for me any element that saves time is in fact a variable that helps facilitate a winning condition through a payment. i don't see these terms as being separate so much as sides of the same coin.

i won't and arguable cannot say this game does not have p2w elements. and for many this game is in fact heavily p2w. however just because they're able to "win" through monetary transactions, that does not mean i am.

if i were to buy every item and feature in this game, i would lose. i'd be paying to lose. a game with hundreds of hours of potential entertainment would be reduced to zero. i'd have nothing else to do. i'd have reduced the value of this game by a substantial amount. i value time over all other things. therein lies the problem.

this message isn't aimed at you specifically but i feel it's an important one to make. the main people who gripe about this game being p2w are the same ones who deep down feel resentment for people w/ better things to do with their time than spending all day playing a video game. i honestly see this argument being had between children and adults, and i just happen to be on the side of adults.

[Taiji]

Matt の投稿を引用：

Taiji の投稿を引用：

I know, I am managing to keep on topic very well.
Since you say you care about that, don't try to divert by pretending your definition of P2W is the only one that counts.

You think it is bad to have rich people pay more of the running costs of the game. You think this because to you it means the game will be designed to serve them at the expense of others enjoyment. But it's plain to see that you don't take into account that those rich people are financing others enjoyment. - You appear to resent them instead of being thankful.

Certainly the game ought to be more enjoyable for those contribute more. But it also has to be enjoyable enough for others, so that those who contribute more feel like there is a community for the game. And so that's where you are wrong - Serving the bigger contributors automatically implies serving even those who make no contribution and deserve nothing.

When it comes to issues where someone's lack of research, or wishful thinking, has them wind up spending more money than they had wrongfully assumed they needed to spend - Why do you absolve them of all responsibility for that?

You could just Google what is pay to win and you'll see that my definition matches the generally accepted definition.

Flawed methodology: A google search will not necessarily show you whether a term has a 'generally accepted' definition or not.
Even if it did though, an inability to accept differing definitions, even those that differ from the generally accepted, would be your personal problem.

Matt の投稿を引用：

you also accept this game is P2W.

That problem of yours, that I just mentioned, made you say something wrong here.

Matt の投稿を引用：

Success in a game should be about how skilful you are at it and not how much power you bought with real money,

That's your 'should' (Which ought to be an 'ought', by the way) and you're welcome to your opinion. Obviously it's up to others what they do, and none of your business, but if you insist on making rules for them when you have no power at all to enforce them - Needlessly frustrate yourself as much as you like.

Matt の投稿を引用：

enjoy your credit card warrioring.

I doubt you mean that.

By the way, I still want an answer to this question:

Taiji の投稿を引用：

When it comes to issues where someone's lack of research, or wishful thinking, has them wind up spending more money than they had wrongfully assumed they needed to spend - Why do you absolve them of all responsibility for that?

I'm looking forward to seeing you admit that you don't have a strong sense of personal responsibility.

[Matt]

You can split hairs on definitions all you like but this game passes the duck test for P2W "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck". Could you honestly say that resurrection scrolls purchasable in the shop are not P2W? You are paying money to beat a boss by being bad.