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I think you misunderstood. Higher-ups are the one who run big AAA companies. And they hire as consultant people who convince them better. And people like Sweet Baby are the ones who are very convincing.
I'm sorry but for me there is a big difference between refusing to buy stuff and actually demanding for people to be fired or fludding streams with accusations of transphobia and whatnot.
What else do you expect from Twitter?
I'm sorry but story in the game is important. Sure, some gneres depend on gameplay more but there are those that become popular due to characters, themes and atmosphere.
A game can be bad without wokeness, yes. So? Again, the problem with woke developers/consultant is not because woke stuff somehow makes game worse (that's not necessarily the case). The problem is that when woke developers have bad ideas it's very hard to do anything about them. As every time you turn down their suggestion, they can claim that your criticism is an attack against them, something that harms minorities, something that is going ot offend and enrage people.
And where did you get the idea that your own wiriters couldn't handle "diverse cast"? I mean, if you were making historical game, finding someone familiar with the time period would make sense. But your setting is only vaguely resembles Carribean Age of Pirates. It's no more realistic than Pirates of the Carribean or Monkey Island. You yourself said that people on Twitter are offended by practically anything. So, why did you care about possible offense still?
Not sure what to tell you but the way she makes her point is not a threat.
No I did understand you correctly and I can only repeat that those higher-ups dont care about that stuff as they are rarely involved in the development. They dont even have the time to deal with those things.
But thats exactly what those people are doing right now :D
There is an actual Steam community group that only has the purpose of boycotting all games that remotely had anything to do with Sweet Baby. Those people are actively rooting for people losing their jobs and demanding that those people are fired all the time. Its exactly the same as you mentioned.
Sorry but thats just something you made up in your mind. Or did you work in actual game dev studio and had that situation happen to you?
I didn't say they couldn't handle the cast. It was an assumption of me that consulting someone else to get more feedback might be valuable. This didnt had anything to do with people on Twitter. Its about wanting to do it right.
Yes, and that's why they hire people like Sweet Baby, or appoint someone who hires, or appoint someone who appoints someone else who hires. Again, in large corporation, in large studios, "chain of command" can be so long that those up top don't understand what happens at the bottom and those who are at the bottom don't care what happens on top (if the game will sell or not).
And? Do they do anything besides making a list? Do they go and disrupt streams of Shadow Gambit? Do they send letters to publishers to blacklist you? Do they shame you publically on BBC or some other mainstream news media?
Again, there is a difference between rooting for EA bankruptcy and actually go to their office and burn it.
I didn't have such a situation while working for a game dev studio but I did have such a situation many times on various forums when trying to have a discussion. Woke people are completely unreasonable and always try the same tactic I described above. Heck, one of the "Sweet Baby Inc" employees came at that "Sweet Baby Detected" group you mentioned and started exactly the same spiel - accused members of the groups of being Nazis, or helping Nazis, or living in the past, said that they can do nothing and just stand in the way of the progress.
But that's exactly what I'm asking about - why "Sweet Baby Inc" feedback was considered more valuable than someone else's? Why did you (or the person who made a decision) think that it's their input that would make "it right"?
But do you know that for a fact? Also there always needs to be a reason to hire a consulting firm. And if you look at Sweet Baby from a neutral perspective (leave out for a moment all the drama surrounding that company right now) its just another consulting firm that you would contact to help out development. Similar to how QA, asset production or other services are often times outsourced to help development. The end goal is to improve the product. Of course, with hindsight you can now say that it maybe didn't work out. But also you can never say for sure if Sweet Baby was actually the reason for a game's flop. And as I said before, I truly believe that all those games that failed and worked with Sweet Baby, they would have also failed without Sweet Baby.
Yeah they are actively trying to cancel games by spreading their lies. They also send out (death)threats to individual developers who dare to speak up. Also at the end of the day, just because the others do it doesnt mean its okay if you do it too. (not saying that you as a person act like that but I hope you get the point).
I dont want to downplay your bad experience on forums but thats not remotely compareable to a professional work environment.
Also the way you talk about "woke" people applies 100% to the people of the other side of the spectrum. And what Sweet Baby employees are doing now is something we dont have any control over.
As mentioned above, Sweet Baby is a consulting firm that you contact to help out with the game. In this case its about writing. Game studios almost always have outside help through outsourcing different aspects. This can be QA, asset production, concept art, etc.
It doesnt work if you look at the production of Shadow Gambit with the knowledge you have now and the drama surrounding Sweet Baby at this very moment. It could also have been another consulting firm instead of Sweet Baby. Why we choose them I dont know. Maybe they made a good offer. Maybe they had someone working there that could help out with the setting we had. I dont the details but I assume there was a good reason why we chose Sweet Baby at that time over any other consulting firm.
_____
Feel free to answer but I will be out of this discussion from now on as it takes a lot of time. I appreciate though that we could have this discussion without it derailing.
In the end you are free to believe and think what you want. I suggest to look at any situation from as many perspectives at possible and not follow any mob just because they are the loudest.
Also the people who are now cheering that so many devs loose their jobs while at the same time crying about the fact that so many games are bad nowadays don't realise that its only gonna get worse from now on. With every studio thats closing down there is a high chance that the people and their knowledge will be lost forever as the industry is already harsh enough. Why would anybody want to stick around to work on games if the only thing you get is a small paycheck, the fear to be fired at any time and occasional death threats?
Where is that correlation coming from?
Again, her words - not mine.
Yes, I do. Not with games specifically, but I did work at a relatively large company, heck it wasn't particularly large and there was still a disconnect between rank-of-file personnel and higher-ups. I don't think gaming companies under people like Bobby Kotick are much different.
I can say without any hindsight (heck, I DID say that from the very beginning, a decade ago) that focusing on "diversity", "representation", "social justice" and other things that Sweet Baby advertises as their field of expertise would never improve a game. And in fact, would make it worse because you didn't focus on things that actually matter for the story - relatable characters, compelling themes, immersive atmosphere, etc.
And in a sense, you are correct - if developers focus on the wrong aspects of their game and try to push ideas that don't work, their game will fail, if they hire Sweet Baby Inc or someone else with the same "field of expertise" or do all the wrong things themselves.
What lies exactly? So far I haven't seen anything that was said in the "Sweet Baby Detected" group that wasn't true. Granted, some people tend to exaggerate or decide too quickly against buying games simply because Sweet Baby was involved (like in the case of Shadow Gambit) but that's their problem, not a cancellation attempt. In fact, you yourself said that a boycott, when it's not supported by the audience at large, is meaningless.
And I totally agree. IF people from "Sweet Baby Detected" send death threats or bully others not to play Suicide Squad or other games from their list - that's unacceptable behavior that I wholeheartedly condemn. And yes THAT would be just as bad as the Hogwarts Legacy harassment campaign. But so far I have seen nothing of the sort.
I don't really see why. If someone believes that woke values are the ultimate good (or at least pretends to believe) and thinks that everyone who doesn't accept them is just a Nazi, that person would act on that belief inside the company just like on forum.
Yes. And? I have no problem calling out the "other side of the spectrum" when they go too far too. Again, I'm yet to see people losing their jobs or driven to suicide for having pronouns in their bio or making a joke about white straight men.
I'm not sure what you mean.
And you don't see the problem in your logic? "Our company hired Sweet Baby, therefore we had a good reason to hire Sweet Baby and therefore Sweet Baby made a good offer" - you putting a cart before the horse, deriving a reason from a conclusion. Instead, you should ask - whose idea was it to hire a firm, that clearly prioritized political activism to other aspects of writing (more vital aspects, I must add) for games?
Well, I can suggest you to do the same. I mean, it sucks to lose job and sucks even more people cheering for you to lose your job. But think about the situation from the perspective of an average gamer.
For years we had been called racists, sexists, nazis, every dirty name in the book for simply voicing our opinion about what we want in our games. "Our strong female character isn't badly written, you just can't handle independent women, you incel!", "If you don't like our characters lecturing you about white straight male privilege, you are just a bigot!", "Fanservice is misogyny! Unless it's gay. Go watch porn if you want attractive female characters." And so on. And when we were pointing out that all those changes made for a 'modern audience' will appeal only to a tiny group of woke ideologues while alienating longtime fans - we were again, laughed at and called even more insulting names.
So, tell me. How am I and people like me going to feel when all our grievances and concerns finally seem vindicated? Should I have sympathy for those people who called me a Nazi for years and made my beloved franchise worse? Again, you are correct that it's not just Sweet Baby. There is Katelyn Kennedy who ruined Star Wars, Kurzman and his Star Trek, Ragnar "It's unfortunate that people in Norway gaming industry are mostly white and male" Tornquist who turned Dreamfall Chapter into a political mouthpiece, the Mariel and Francesca from Lab Zero Games destroying the whole company because company owner (and lead programmer) made a bad joke, leaving him in huge debt... If some of those people happen to go bankrupt because their games or movies don't sell (just like I said they wouldn't) why should I feel sorry for them?
P.S. If you don't have time or aren't particularly interested - you don't need to actually answer. Just think about developers who of late put a lot of effort into antagonizing gamers, especially those who happen to hold "wrong" beliefs.
And now people come here and for the other games and accuse us of random BS that some rigth wing idiots made up in their mind?
Your text is mostly either dodging the points or some things you think or believe. There is no actual evidence of anything. Also just because you dont see those (death)threats and insults towards devs doesnt mean its not happening. I see it almost everyday. Its just because everyone is in their own bubble and if you don't look outside of that then of course you won't see all that stuff. I mean you can just look through this forum and find many posts in which lies are spreaded or we are insulted in some form or another. Obviously it doesnt matter anymore. Its also funny to some extend. I can assure you that all devs are laughing at those idiots making these stupid claims. At least from experience I can say that we always made fun of the people who came here to post actual braindead stuff. And I still do with my friends.
If you actually get called a nazi and you feel offended by it then its weird. Because either way you should be able to laugh it off or maybe there is some truth to it. Thats for you to decide. I as a gamer never got called a nazi or other things (if I ignore online lobbys of certain games) and I also don't feel attacked in any way if someone says GamersTM are this and that. Because I know Im not part of the people that are called out.
Also, and I think thats one of the biggest problems, people accuse games or other media of being bad because of having female or poc characters. While the actual problem are not the characters but its often how badly written those characters are instead. But the way people bring up their "feedback" makes them look like racist iditiots. And they are gonna called out for that.
Take our game for example. If you come here and say you don't like Afia (our main protagonist) because maybe the way she talks is annoying or she is a boring character or whatever that would be a fair point to make. I personally would disagree but thats an opinion someone can have. But if people come here (and we had plenty of those people) and basically just say "ughh another black woman as a character" then those people can f off immediately.
I can't tell you how you should feel, but going against the people that should create the entertainment you want from them doesn't make much sense in my eyes. If there is something you don't like for whatever reason then just don't buy it. There are so many games, so many books, so many movies etc. out there, its okay to skip certain things. And if something truly sucks, then in most cases that thing will flop and the people behind it are going to reconsider their next approach. At the end of the day everything goes where the money goes. Vote with your wallet and thats fine. But don't go after devs, spread lies and insult or threaten them. No wonder then that people are called out for being racists, sexists, nazis or whatnot.
edit:
For myself I can only say that I just skip media that doesnt look appealing. That can also include badly written characters where I have the feeling their only purpose is to be there for "political" reasons (because then the character feels cheap, I dont mind the message). But if I feel that way I dont go out of my way to insult the people that created the media. I just ignore it. I value my time and do something else instead.
Excuse me? What points? I just pointed out that according to the very words of Sweet Baby they want to "terrify you with the possibility of what would happen if they don't get their way". I asked you a simple question - if you don't believe that there is any connection between the possibility of "some people will get mad and a sh*tstorm might come up" and actions of Sweet Baby Inc, why do you hire them for exactly that issue? Why do you think their input would change the game the way to avoid controversy?
So, let me get this straight. You say that I lack evidence about Sweet Baby Inc woke agenda and underhanded tactics. And yet, suggest I believe about Sweet Baby Detected harassing you without any evidence? That I believe that Mimimi hired Sweet Baby for no particular reason without any evidence?
And? I can show you same things for other games. There was a forum post where a guy literally suggested that the game Othercide promotes Nazism because it has black/white/red palette and a theme about protecting children. (Sadly that one post in particular was deleted)
I'm not sure what are you trying to insinuate here but you are clearly not following your own advice, as you complain about "BS that some right wing idiots made up in their mind" instead of laughing it off. Or maybe, as you've said, there is some truth to it? Eh?
Well, if you have to ignore things for your statement to be true, then your statement isn't actually true.
It's funny how people never even bet an eye at female or "PoC" characters a decade or two ago, before the likes of Anita Sarkeesian and folks from Sweet Baby Inc started talking about "diversity and representation". And *suddenly" everyone is racist and sexist idiot.
And I agree. But did you ever wonder why so many people nowadays associate "diverse cast" with bad writing and crappy quality? Again, that' wasn't so a decade ago.
If people who *should* create entertainment I want *don't* create entertainment I want, I don't see why should I defend them.
That's true for people who play for gameplay and challenge only. I'm one of the people who is more interested in story and lore. There is only one Star Wars, there is only one Star Trek, there is only one Sonic and only one StarCraft. And when your favorite universe is distorted and twisted for the sake of political agenda - there is no escape from that.
Again, I haven't seen any evidence that the "Sweet Baby Detected" group organizes any sort of harassment. Unless you present to me actual proof that they threaten developers, my opinion is that they are not the ones spreading lies here. As far as I'm concerned, they do exactly what you suggest - making people aware of "Sweet Baby" stuff, so they could "vote with their wallet".
I, for example, chose to still have "Shadow Gambit" on my wishlist. I found nothing woke in the demo and that's why I believed your pal at the start of the thread about "Sweet Baby" involvement being minimal. If someone else decides that not enough and chooses not to buy "Shadow Gambit" - that's that person's choice.
We didn't hire them for that reason (as already mentioned).
Its funny that you can believe what random people tell you on the internet but only if it fits your vision. Why do you believe them but not me?
Thats absolutely not on the same level lol
also whats the point here? Just because someone got called out by someone else on one random forum the death threats are fine?
As explained above, people telling lies about games have an actual impact. If you call just me a nazi or whatever I dont really care. I know better.
I mean sure we can not ignore that example which then only proves the point of devs calling out GamersTM as they like to use slurs and other nasty comments while playing online games. They are all the same people. So sure I was called Nazi, Jew and whatnot by the exact type of people who are now crying about Sweet Baby.
People always did that. Just not on this level as it is now. Also people long complained before they even knew Sweet Baby existed.
Yeah because games were (for the most part) better a decade ago. Current games come out broken or lack in a lot of things. But thats not because of the "woke". Not sure why its that hard to see. If a game sucks, good or different writing won't help much. Except of course its a game with a heavy focus on story. But thats not that common in AAA.
Ive never said anything about defending. I just said that people should leave the devs alone. Shouting at them doesn't make a game magically better.
Then branch out. I also like good storys and lore and all that stuff. There are still plenty of other universes to invest time in. If Star Wars sucks now then pretend the latest stuff doesn exist and watch something else. I am big Halo fan. The current tv show looks bad. So I just ignore it.
1. As I already said before, check the other threads in the Shadow Gambit forum. Or check some of the latest negative reviews on the store page.
2. The group itself doesnt organize any harrassement but it supports it as the whole existence of that group is based on lies and something people made up in their minds like "the woke agenda". What does that even mean?
Is it actually the person's choice if its based on lies that they were told? If you dont want to buy a game because the devs worked together with Sweet Baby you are on the same level as the people who didnt want to buy Harry Potter because of JK Rowling.
Of course everybody is free to do however they like, but in that case I just see them as a clown that cannot think for themselves.
The only thing you mentioned is that you don't actually know why Sweet Baby was hired. You just assume that my assumptions are wrong.
But that's my point. I don't believe ANYONE. I believe my own eyes. And ears. When I hear "terrify them to get what you want" and see "there are nazis in your group" from Sweet Baby Inc employees and don't see anything that resembles death threats from "Sweet Baby Detected" I don't need "random people" explain to me who is harassing and bullying whom in this situation.
Again. I never said that death threats are fine. The way you ignore my points raises quite a few questions about you and your motivations here.
And people calling me Nazi also have an actual impact. I was banned on GOG, Red Thread Games forum and even Equestria Daily. Either by those people who called me Nazi or by people who listened to them.
Possibly. But again, if Sweet Baby Detected is just a group of trash-talkers, why are you so afraid of them now?
People complained about the "woke agenda" before Sweet Baby existed because it WAS happening before Sweet Baby existed. Again, it all started at the early 2010s. Before that no one cared if Unreal II or Urban Chaos protagonists were white males or not. People liked Mace Vindu, Blade, Lara Croft and many other "non-white" and "non-male" characters.
Again, I don't need to believe anyone telling me if it was one way or another - I've seen that with my own eyes. I've seen how things started to change and it was activists who claimed to champion "diversity, equity, and inclusivity" that brought that change.
WUT?! AAA has been about story and spectacle since the late 2000s. No large studio dared to experiment with gameplay for years.
And they do exactly that. The whole point of "Sweet Baby Detected" group is to inform people so they would avoid the games, not harass their developers.
Yeah, and for each of them there is a risk of someone like "Sweet Baby" being hired and messing up that universe.
Except the show isn't canon to games. I would like to see if you ignore changes if they were made in mainline games.
Checked. Found no death threats.
Then your accusations are baseless. End of story.
You clearly made up YOUR mind about the issue. I've already shown you a video where SBI founder literally suggests using terror as a tactic to "get what they want". If you are going to continue ignore (or somehow justify) that, there is no point for me to explain things like "woke agenda" that you already decided what to think about.
Yes, it is. You can choose to listen to a single source of information that is (possibly) lying to you or you can choose to check other sources, compare data, and do research. That's how freedom works - people choose what they want to choose according to their tastes and views, even if you don't agree with some of the choices. That includes sources of information. If you are demanding to silence those sources that are (or you believe are) lying, you are denying people their choice (however dumb or hasty it may be).
And you are correct. But you are also accusing people from SBD group of a lot more than not buying games.
2. I thought thats obvious but a boycott has a much bigger impact on smaller studios and games compared to the big AAA games with all their marketing. They have a much wider audience.
No I dont assume. I just know that we didnt hire them for any weird reason you mentioned. Also fun fact: we actually got small sh*tstorms. But by those kind of people who are now advocating for boycotting all games that worked with Sweet Baby. I wonder why :)
You have no actual points. Everything is based on an aggressive mob of stupid people that are mad at games based on one single company that actually doesnt have that much of an impact.
Yeah well not sure how to tell you but maybe you are the problem then? Maybe rethink about the topics you talk and maybe how you talk about them? In any case this doesnt make you look like a good person :D
Repeating now for I dont know how many times: Those people are actively targeting games by giving bad reviews and spreading lies.
Yes people also cared before that. Also think of the time between 2005 and 2015 and how almost every AAA game had a generic white male as a protagonist. Not that those are problem, but it turned into an actual meme that so many games had this kind of protagonist. And sure, other games with more diverse characters existed. But those were the minority.
Nah not really. I agree with the gameplay part though.
Think of all the Ubisoft games for examples. Sure they have a story and all that, but thats not the focus of the games. I could make a long list of games that prove my point. At the end it doesnt even matter that much, but in my experience, if you want to play something with a focus on storytelling, you better look out for indie games.
Good news for you then because you can now save a lot of money by never buying any game ever because there is always a risk that something is going to be messed up sooner or later. Also btw the gaming industry as a whole is left leaning. So it doesnt even matter if people from Sweet Baby worked on something or not. Almost all games are made by "woke" people :D
Yeah well then the new game sucks and I move on.
You are mixing things up. Never said we got any death threats. They would also be removed by steam here on the forum or in the reviews. I said we are already seeing the impact of the Sweet Baby drama if you would check the reviews or the forum.
The death threats are a general issue that happen to devs or individual people that dare to speak up on certain topics.
Yes
And the video proves nothing. You are misinterpreting her words either on purpose or because you lack basic communication skills.
Essentially you are seeing Sweet Baby as some sort of mafia that can summon hate mobs to sabotage games which is completely ridiculous. How should that even work? Every game not working with Sweet Baby will get a sh*tstorm whenever she says so?
This would turn into a philosophical debate whether or not you could count that as an actual choice. I personally would disagree, but I get your point.
Yes because those kind of people are doing that stuff that I have mentioned. The group itself doesnt matter. Its the mindset of those people and the existence of the group just makes it worse.
What lies exactly? Is the fact that you worked with Sweet Baby - a lie? No. Is the fact that Sweet Baby's agenda is to promote DEI stuff - a lie? No. Is the fact that Sweet Baby's employees behave unprofessionally and make nasty comments like "you can't be racist towards white people" - a lie? No.
I do acknowledge that. And I think they are wrong. But that's what "off-topic" filter is for.
And that's exactly why benefit from exposure will more likely outweigh negative reviews for you than for HL developers.
Do you know the reasons why you've hired Sweet Baby Inc or not? If yes - tell me what those reasons are. If not - you can't know those reasons are not the ones I assume.
Again, what "sh*tstorms" are you talking about? Where are they?
Ah, so when I suffer from woke crowd - that's because I'm not a good person. And when you suffer from anti-woke crowd - you are completely innocent, it's just "an aggressive mob of stupid people" mad at you for the wrong reasons. Ra-aight.
Or maybe it's not lies and you are part of the problem? While I haven't seen anything woke in "Shadow Gambit", your arguments sound more like someone who is ready to defend woke ideology, so I'm not surprised people believe you to be one of the political activists who mess with their favorite games.
No, they did not.
Even if it is true (I would like to see the actual statistic that show this isn't something that activists made up), why do you care about that if "that's not the problem"?
"Woke"=/=Left leaning. Unless you think everyone who is not woke is either "alt-right" or a nazi. So no, plenty of people in the industry aren't woke. They are just afraid to show that.
Then your situation isn't nearly as bad as was with Hogwarts Legacy.
Dude! Obviously, Sweet Baby Inc is not the only woke company in the industry. There are also journalists (like the ones from Kotaku, who just recently wrote an article defending Sweet Baby) who have connections with such companies. And HR departments in large studios like Activision and Ubisoft. Blackrock with its ESG-based investments. And woke mob that resides on Twitter and ResetEra.
And yes, the system works exactly like mafia - if a company doesn't adhere to woke ideology it gets attacked from all sides by everyone, starting from bots on Twitter, up to advertisers and sponsors pulling their money away.
Well, maybe if you haven't hired Sweet Baby Inc, you wouldn't have to worry about the mindset and the group.
https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/17ngqw6/a_few_anecdotes_about_recently_bankrupt_game/
- the primary characters driving the story are women (ship, navigator, main antagonist)
- very few white males on the crew, while it seems most enemies fall into that category
Given that it's all VERY stylized the latter point feels like reaching; the former is true but is one of those points that really shouldn't raise any eyebrows until one starts to deliberately "look" for reasons (like I'm doing right now).
What SBI did and why were they hired for this game? No idea and I doubt there are any undead pirates working there that could add credence to any characters or story arcs. Feels like a waste of money, if you ask me. Possibly hired to tick some arbitrary checkbox for DEI/ESG funding? No clue, pure speculation.
Would NOT hiring them change anything? In this instance I honestly doubt it - it seems the studio went under long before this SBI thing blew up. Than again, no clue what kind of "cut" consultants like SBI take... perhaps it's not an insignificant amount that could instead be used to, say, promote the game to boost sales? Probably unlikely, but what do I know...
No, she doesn't - there's actually a line in game where she states that her friend was interested in her that way, but she didn't feel the same.