The Fermi Paradox

The Fermi Paradox

qdbp Jul 6, 2021 @ 9:31pm
Unimaginative
I was sold on this game as a decision-based rpg where you evolve multiple species through story hooks that are influenced by your past choices. What I got a bunch of random bubbles that you use to fill up bars on a slider with flavor text as generic as the "tech up" text from civilization. Moreover, I completely gave up once I saw that once a species approaches modern history, they precisely mirror human power structures and events and pop culture. It's lazy as ♥♥♥♥ and I honestly hope the devs see this so they can write some stuff.

I really hope all that stuff is filler text. If not... ♥♥♥♥, guys, I could write so much better stuff than this for you.
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Nimic Jul 7, 2021 @ 9:53am 
That's your constructive feedback? Write more better?
Sirius Lee Jul 7, 2021 @ 11:08am 
Came for Enrico, got science for dummies.
In one sense, I understand one aspect of it: regardless of species, their behaviors get described in ways that seem very analogous to human behavior. To some extent, I can understand this because the game is being written by humans, and it can take some work to think outside of one's own species' psychology and biology.

On the other hand, consider that races that are primarily autotropic, like the Rama, might otherwise engage their actions over a *very* long time and have few needs that would even require a development of technology, so those sorts of races might take hundreds, if not thousands, of times longer to develop. Do you think players would be willing to wait that long?

Different types of technology might also happen at different rates--whereas more animate species might focus on hunting and gathering, something more plantlike might instead focus on ecological engineering and autoagriculture (first moving stones to allow their root structurs to grow, enhance aeration/hydration, etc.), with additional efforts put toward symbiosis with other life forms, be they animal or fungal in nature. Handling the broad varieties of different techs might otherwise prove unmanageable. In order to keep the game playable, some level of technological hand-waving seems almost inevitable to me.

Some people won't like that. So be it.
qdbp Jul 7, 2021 @ 11:03pm 
Originally posted by theothermichaelmarcus:
Some people won't like that. So be it.
It's not like I'm complaining about game mechanics in terms of tech level or civilizational advancement. I'm complaining about the flavor text. When they started mimicking the social movements of the 20th century, I was done. It's not just anthropocentric, it's America-centric to think that entire alien civs would mirror US inter-generational dynamics. As I said before, it's just lazy.
Last edited by qdbp; Jul 7, 2021 @ 11:03pm
elizebell Jul 8, 2021 @ 2:14am 
There are events in the game which reference the development of other countries such as The Mandate of Heaven event which is tied in with Ancient China, and one of the Great War events during the Industrial Age is a reference to the Russian Revolution, which depending on how you handle it, you could make a entire race become communist.

Unfortunately given that the development for civs does mimic human historical development and like it or not, the US is a global superpower that has a major impact on the world in the 20th -21st centuries, which is when the Nuclear and Digital Age falls under, you are unavoidably gonna get references to the US.

Xenofiction as fascinating as it is not a seller, which is why a lot of sci-fi media tends to have either humanoid aliens or aliens which resemble animals both past and present. The truly ALIEN aliens are either considered villains, enigmatic allies or forces that the protagonists cannot understand. The Fermi Paradox COULD go the Xenofiction route but I strongly doubt we would get a coherent game or if it even sells well to begin with.

Until we actually stumble across alien civilisations and have a better grasp on how civs develop which is unlikely to happen in our lifetime, we are always going to look at other civs through a anthropocentric lens. Its a sad fact of reality.
Ferrus Animus Jul 8, 2021 @ 2:15am 
"The traditional lifecycle of the [acquatic piscine] species involves the death of both parents after oviparity to supply the developing offspring with with nutrients.
Over the millenia means to supply the offspring with nutrients artifically have become available and modern medicine is looking for a method to eleminate death as part of the reproductive cycle"

Follow up:
"After the successful change of the [acquatic pisces] reproductive cycle, and the ability of any parental group haviong offspring more than once, reproduction rates have exploded. Along with that, resources for the care and nurturing of young [acquatic pisces] have become more scarce. This results in especially poorer [acquatic pisces] often not gettign children until very late in their lifecycle and a the offspring growing unsupervised, creating big splits in society"

One the one hand I can excuse the current events with the early access status (Though it is in quite rough shape for an EA game). But this game will life or die based on the amount of event content, and IME that part is often underestimated.
I'd love to get an insight into the systems planned here.
elizebell Jul 8, 2021 @ 2:42am 
I just thought a workaround of this. I play Stellaris a lot and in that game, you have various alien portraits divided into various species category (Humanoids, Avian, Mammalian, Fungoid, Mollusoid etc) When species tags do get added to the game, have events fire for depending on what the species tag is.

So for example a lot of events in the game rn, can be classified as 'Humanoid' events. Humans naturally will have these events but other Humanoid like aliens such as the Odo, the Kular and maybe the Prun would also share these events as well. But then you have Reptile/Avian events which Dinosaurs, Kaar and the Maru would use. Aquatic events for Dolphins, Esh and Dorloth. Plant events for the Rama and Dorloth. The Rao would have 'Insect/Arthropod' events and I predict we will get Fungal, more actual insect aliens and Mollusc aliens in the future so special events for them.

Go even further and have various sub categories to take special traits into account. The Maru are blind so maybe they have various media that revolves around smells and sound more then sight like it is for humans. The Kaar can fly so would they need to build combat planes as much?
cry-havoc ( Fermi Paradox dev )  [developer] Jul 8, 2021 @ 2:45am 
Originally posted by elizebell:
I just thought a workaround of this. I play Stellaris a lot and in that game, you have various alien portraits divided into various species category (Humanoids, Avian, Mammalian, Fungoid, Mollusoid etc) When species tags do get added to the game, have events fire for depending on what the species tag is.

So for example a lot of events in the game rn, can be classified as 'Humanoid' events. Humans naturally will have these events but other Humanoid like aliens such as the Odo, the Kular and maybe the Prun would also share these events as well. But then you have Reptile/Avian events which Dinosaurs, Kaar and the Maru would use. Aquatic events for Dolphins, Esh and Dorloth. Plant events for the Rama and Dorloth. The Rao would have 'Insect/Arthropod' events and I predict we will get Fungal, more actual insect aliens and Mollusc aliens in the future so special events for them.

Go even further and have various sub categories to take special traits into account. The Maru are blind so maybe they have various media that revolves around smells and sound more then sight like it is for humans. The Kaar can fly so would they need to build combat planes as much?

Yes that is the system that we have in mind for that. Of course these system only makes sense when there are enough different events in to actually separate them.
SBA77 Jul 8, 2021 @ 10:43am 
Originally posted by Kirakari:
I was sold on this game as a decision-based rpg where you evolve multiple species through story hooks that are influenced by your past choices. What I got a bunch of random bubbles that you use to fill up bars on a slider with flavor text as generic as the "tech up" text from civilization. Moreover, I completely gave up once I saw that once a species approaches modern history, they precisely mirror human power structures and events and pop culture. It's lazy as ♥♥♥♥ and I honestly hope the devs see this so they can write some stuff.

I really hope all that stuff is filler text. If not... ♥♥♥♥, guys, I could write so much better stuff than this for you.

Luckily it's still Early Access, and the game is about a year away from release so there is plenty of time left. I think the one thing to keep in mind is that this is basically a Paradox game; a Paradox game without any of the management and government simulation and only the events, and possibly rp; though I don't how much you can rp when you are not dealing with individuals.

They seem to have made some lore already for each species, so I think its going to partly come down to how much they want to balance pre-established lore vs. blank slate for players to mold. It is a bit disappointing that they don't have more events with unconventional results (e.g. a society becoming more Utopian through monarch). With the events they could also toy around with conspiracy theories as well, could lead to some pretty fun events.
Last edited by SBA77; Jul 16, 2021 @ 1:27am
SBA77 Jul 8, 2021 @ 7:36pm 
Originally posted by elizebell:
The Kaar can fly so would they need to build combat planes as much?

I think it kind of makes sense, and I would let them get away with that, as its not unreasonable to think that a species that can fly would probably use aircraft like how we use cars or other land vehicles. I think it would be a little ridiculous for someone to complain about humans being portrayed using land vehicles, because they have the natural ability walk and run. If the devs really wanted to go into detail they could make it that flying species like the Kaar, have their entire societies centered around flight, using aircraft instead of cars, artillery, tanks, and maybe even ships.

It might be just semantics, but I am little annoyed by the fact that in the equivalent era to the present day, that mechanized infantry are portrayed as actual infantry rather than what they are in reality armored vehicles, such as infantry fighting vehicles. Perhaps they should change the name to soldiers, or infantry or marines instead. In fact I think the names of soldiers is a little too specific. Throughout history, from the ancient era to the present day, we have seen that militaries have used combined arms. Maybe the descriptions of military conflicts should be made more abstract. They could also go in the other direction, and maybe add more units to the descriptions to add more variety. For instance instead of just saying a unit of mechanized infantry was destroyed by a fighter jet, they could also have a message that says a tank battalion was destroyed by a jet fighter, and a battleship was destroyed by a jet fighter as well as the one about the mechanized infantry being defeated by the jet fighter. I don't think it's the most important issue, and I don't think it would bother me if they didn't change this, but it would be nice if they did, and it would add a lot more flavor and variety. Isn't that the kind of thing that these kind of games thrive on; RP, flavor and variety?
Last edited by SBA77; Jul 25, 2021 @ 8:19pm
elizebell Jul 9, 2021 @ 12:45am 
Originally posted by SBA77:
I think it kind of makes sense, and I would let them get away with that, as its not unreasonable to think that a species that can fly would probably use aircraft like how we use cars or other land vehicles. I think it would be a little ridiculous for someone to complain about humans being portrayed using land vehicles, because they have the natural ability walk and run. If the devs really wanted to go into detail they could make it that flying species like the Kaar, have their entire societies centered around flight, using aircraft instead of cars, artillery, tanks, and maybe even ships.

That would actually make the Nautical Age for the Kaar a little awkward because in our human history it was caused by the Americas being discovered, but if the Kaar are capable of flight, and use aircraft for universal travel vehicles and have no cars/tanks like humans do, then there would be no 'hidden continent' to be discovered. The only way I could see the devs work around it is if there is a continent in Gliese which is surrounded by perpetual sandstorms/duststorms (Its a desert world at the end of the day) and only in that era does the Kaar develop the technology to invent aircraft capable of going through said dust storm. That could also work with the Prun and as for the Rao, maybe the ground surrounding the sandstorms is too tough to dig out until certain technology is developed.

SBA77 Jul 9, 2021 @ 1:54am 
Originally posted by elizebell:
Originally posted by SBA77:
I think it kind of makes sense, and I would let them get away with that, as its not unreasonable to think that a species that can fly would probably use aircraft like how we use cars or other land vehicles. I think it would be a little ridiculous for someone to complain about humans being portrayed using land vehicles, because they have the natural ability walk and run. If the devs really wanted to go into detail they could make it that flying species like the Kaar, have their entire societies centered around flight, using aircraft instead of cars, artillery, tanks, and maybe even ships.

That would actually make the Nautical Age for the Kaar a little awkward because in our human history it was caused by the Americas being discovered, but if the Kaar are capable of flight, and use aircraft for universal travel vehicles and have no cars/tanks like humans do, then there would be no 'hidden continent' to be discovered. The only way I could see the devs work around it is if there is a continent in Gliese which is surrounded by perpetual sandstorms/duststorms (Its a desert world at the end of the day) and only in that era does the Kaar develop the technology to invent aircraft capable of going through said dust storm. That could also work with the Prun and as for the Rao, maybe the ground surrounding the sandstorms is too tough to dig out until certain technology is developed.

Who said they'd have modern airplanes in earlier ages. I thought the issue was that you don't think it makes sense for creatures that can fly on their own to have jet planes. I didn't mean that their society should literal based on aircraft only that it might make sense for them to have a society based around flight, because why wouldn't a species whose primary mode of locomotion is flight do that. Or maybe they prefer to walk and actually hate flying, I don't know, I've never a Kaar before.
Last edited by SBA77; Jul 16, 2021 @ 1:32am
LaChouette Jul 9, 2021 @ 8:18am 
Originally posted by elizebell:
Originally posted by SBA77:
I think it kind of makes sense, and I would let them get away with that, as its not unreasonable to think that a species that can fly would probably use aircraft like how we use cars or other land vehicles. I think it would be a little ridiculous for someone to complain about humans being portrayed using land vehicles, because they have the natural ability walk and run. If the devs really wanted to go into detail they could make it that flying species like the Kaar, have their entire societies centered around flight, using aircraft instead of cars, artillery, tanks, and maybe even ships.

That would actually make the Nautical Age for the Kaar a little awkward because in our human history it was caused by the Americas being discovered, but if the Kaar are capable of flight, and use aircraft for universal travel vehicles and have no cars/tanks like humans do, then there would be no 'hidden continent' to be discovered. The only way I could see the devs work around it is if there is a continent in Gliese which is surrounded by perpetual sandstorms/duststorms (Its a desert world at the end of the day) and only in that era does the Kaar develop the technology to invent aircraft capable of going through said dust storm. That could also work with the Prun and as for the Rao, maybe the ground surrounding the sandstorms is too tough to dig out until certain technology is developed.

At that time, our land vehicles were pulled by animals, which works significantly less well in flight, when gravity is a ♥♥♥♥♥. Also, depending on how far away from each other the continents are, flight would be useless. For such a long trip, you'd need supplies, you'd need ways to rest. Having a boat as such a thing would be ideal. I think the main difference between the Kaar and us on that front would be that the Kaar would send scouts ahead of the boat, because it's a thing they can easily do.
SBA77 Jul 9, 2021 @ 10:12am 
Originally posted by LaChouette:
Originally posted by elizebell:

That would actually make the Nautical Age for the Kaar a little awkward because in our human history it was caused by the Americas being discovered, but if the Kaar are capable of flight, and use aircraft for universal travel vehicles and have no cars/tanks like humans do, then there would be no 'hidden continent' to be discovered. The only way I could see the devs work around it is if there is a continent in Gliese which is surrounded by perpetual sandstorms/duststorms (Its a desert world at the end of the day) and only in that era does the Kaar develop the technology to invent aircraft capable of going through said dust storm. That could also work with the Prun and as for the Rao, maybe the ground surrounding the sandstorms is too tough to dig out until certain technology is developed.

At that time, our land vehicles were pulled by animals, which works significantly less well in flight, when gravity is a ♥♥♥♥♥. Also, depending on how far away from each other the continents are, flight would be useless. For such a long trip, you'd need supplies, you'd need ways to rest. Having a boat as such a thing would be ideal. I think the main difference between the Kaar and us on that front would be that the Kaar would send scouts ahead of the boat, because it's a thing they can easily do.

That's my rationale for the Kaar having jet fighter, aircraft or any other kind of flying machine/domesticated flying animal. They could use them for long distance travel.


Originally posted by SBA77:
If the devs really wanted to go into detail they could make it that flying species like the Kaar, have their entire societies centered around flight, using aircraft instead of cars, artillery, tanks, and maybe even ships.

I was thinking more in the lines of flying animals, flying machines, and airships, as well as aircraft depending on the time period, when I first said that.
Last edited by SBA77; Jul 9, 2021 @ 10:13am
SBA77 Jul 9, 2021 @ 10:36am 
Originally posted by Kirakari:
It's not like I'm complaining about game mechanics...

I think that interspecies warfare/invasions could be a little more fleshed out. Maybe making it a more involved event chain like in most Paradox games or kind of like the crisis events they have now. I think that new dueling system in CKIII could be a good source of inspiration. Occupations would be an interesting addition too, but that would probably require multiple species cohabitation; which even though people have asked for it (the cohabitation), the devs are not sure they can do it.
Last edited by SBA77; Jul 9, 2021 @ 10:52am
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