One Sphere of Fire per Demon; 3 file saves later

[Rage Fuel]

Hey everyone,

I noticed this was a hot topic on the forum. I have 3 save files going right now in order to check the efficiency of the Sphere of Fire usage.

The general debate is whether you should put them all on one demon, or spread them out, or should you put them on the least demon or the highest demon.

On my first playthrough I spread them out but then when I had an extra one, I put a second one onto my Agriel.

While I was writing my guide I experimented and put 3 on Haagenti and 1 on Dantalion (I wanted to put all onto Haagenti, since it was the highest demon, but that's the way she goes).

I'm currently working on my third save file with one sphere per demon. I am saving spheres of fire for the next demon rather than doubling them up.

Right now I am at Belphegor's 3rd upgrade and producing Gems in the Septendecillion range, Souls in the Quadrillion range, and my Raw mana is in the 10's of millions. I have 3 skulls on my ghouls and 1 skull on Pestilence. I have about 2300 Leviathan.

I'm a little behind my first playthrough now but I think it's a bit more stable.

I've started needing to ladder my Abaddon and Lolmisho since creating Abaddon uses all of my souls, and creating Lolmisho uses all of my Abaddons, and creating Belphegor uses all of my gems.

Tl;DR - I think that putting one sphere of fire on a demon and saving them is the best method. It seems like I'm able to upgrade my bottom 3 much more often than my first save where I had 2 on Agriel.

Also, I put 3 skulls onto the ghouls until I unlocked pestilence, and have put the next two skulls onto pestilence. This seems to be the best method for souls.

Mathematically I am still uncertain if it will pay off to save my current extra sphere for the Azazel demon. I haven't unlocked Azazel on any of my playthroughs, but I think that I made it to my third crystal/Azazel faster than my first playthrough and I feel my demon production is much more stable.

[.DeaTh]

Personally I think stacking them onto the lowest demon might be the best play, because thats what increases the raw material income, speak Gems/Souls/Crystals

[Rage Fuel]

Originally posted by .DeaTh:

Personally I think stacking them onto the lowest demon might be the best play, because thats what increases the raw material income, speak Gems/Souls/Crystals

I'll try this next.

[.DeaTh]

cool :)

[Grim]

As someone doing that im unsure if it is, I feel like im hitting a wall but it could just be the soul wall. That said I'm almost never at the i need gems point for long. I am just missing two demons down of people. I think having a gem on each more so prevents this by splitting the load.

[pac230]

Originally posted by .DeaTh:

Personally I think stacking them onto the lowest demon might be the best play, because thats what increases the raw material income, speak Gems/Souls/Crystals

On the same unit, spheres stack additively, not multiplicatively, so you want to spread them across as many productive units as you can.

[.DeaTh]

I see....

[Rage Fuel]

I'm trying by putting Fire Spheres on only Agriel and it seems to be fine. Haagenti and Dantalion are only limited by souls. Haagenti does deplete some Dantalion but it doesn't matter as they fill up pretty quickly. I think it feels better than spreading them over all of the demons.

[Grim]

Originally posted by Veresy:

I'm trying by putting Fire Spheres on only Agriel and it seems to be fine. Haagenti and Dantalion are only limited by souls. Haagenti does deplete some Dantalion but it doesn't matter as they fill up pretty quickly. I think it feels better than spreading them over all of the demons.

I'm at the belphegor stage whos only limit after 1000 of her is lolmisho whos only limit is abaddons whos only limit is souls. I'm upto e62 gems so im slowly buying santa muertes and i bought a few red herrings during my last crystal rush.

[Rage Fuel]

Originally posted by Grim:

I'm at the belphegor stage whos only limit after 1000 of her is lolmisho whos only limit is abaddons whos only limit is souls. I'm upto e62 gems so im slowly buying santa muertes and i bought a few red herrings during my last crystal rush.

That's about where I was on my first playthrough. I haven't been able to get any red herrings on any playthrough yet but I have hard reset a few times. I still have the saves and I keep checking on them to compare them. The one where I put all of the spheres on Haagenti is by far doing the worst.

[Grim]

Only e14 to go.. reee..

[Grim]

and in an hour i made it I reached the point where lolmisho made more abadons than it used and the limiter for bel was lolmishos only.

[Pwnlarone_Adam]

Originally posted by Grim:

and in an hour i made it I reached the point where lolmisho made more abadons than it used and the limiter for bel was lolmishos only.

I like just reached this point and it was ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ glorious, upgrades after upgrades ♥♥♥♥ went crazy.

[Killerkonnat]

Spreading the spheres out is absolutely the mathematically best profit. As long as you don't throw spheres on demons that produce uselessly low amounts of units currently. (E.G. If your belphegor produces e20 Lolmisho per second but you've been able to manually buy e26 Lolmisho, fire sphere on Belph is completely useless until it catches up in production to being above maybe 1/1000 of what you own per second.)

The fire spheres are additive with each other instead of multiplicative. That means every fire sphere you add after the first one is LESS effective than the previous one. Let's say you own one Contract B so your spheres give a +100% bonus. You give one sphere to Agriel. With the sphere you go from 100% production (base production) to 200%. You doubled the amount of gems they make. You put a second sphere on them, you go from 200% production to 300%. Now you only increased the production by 50% over the previous instead of doubling. (300%/200%) The third sphere is only 400/300 ~= 33.3%

On the other hand if you put 1 sphere on Agriel and 1 sphere on Dantalion, Dantalion produces twice as fast meaning you have double the amount of Agriels you would without it, plus Agriel makes gems twice at fast. That means with 2 fire spheres you got 200% * 200% = 400% production. Spreading out gave you 4x production instead of 3x.

If you put fire spheres on higher tier demons you temporarily have lower gem production than dropping them on Agriel because it takes some time for the increased production to propagate its benefit down the stack. Like... you put second sphere on agriel, you instantly get 50% production. But put your first sphere on Lolmisho and it takes a few minutes to produce enough extra Agriels to get the same boost... but after waiting from between a few minutes to maybe 10-30 minutes the production has caught up and you'll permanently have a lot more production than not spreading the spheres.

Additionally, putting spheres on higher tier demons is SLIGHTLY stronger than low tier demons because the demon upgrades exist. In the long term putting the first/second/nth sphere on Lolmisho gives the exact same production bonus to gems than putting the same nth sphere on Agriel. (after waiting for the production to propagate down) So getting 2x production on any demon ends up meaning you get 2x gem production in the long term. (as long as they produce more demons than you can buy) BUT because demon upgrades exist, putting fire spheres on higher tier demons lets you buy more upgrades on the lower tier demons than you would otherwise, it means you get slightly better efficiency for putting spheres on higher tier demons than lower.

Simple example: You put a sphere on agriel, you produce double the gems as before, no other effect. If you put that sphere on Dantalion instead, you produce double the gems you did before... BUT you also have double the number of Agriels. Having double the number of Agriels means you can buy the next Agriel upgrade doubling their production sooner, which means some of the times you make more gems because you got the next agriel upgrade sooner than the person who put the sphere on Agriel. The higher tier demons you put the spheres on and the more spheres you have on them, the bigger this effect of getting extra upgrades is, being able to get multiple levels of upgrades ahead eventually.
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So, the mathematically optimal strategy for fire spheres (and also fire skulls) is:
1: Ignore highest tier(s) of units if they have uselessly low production. (Produces much less of the lower tier than you can manually buy)
2: If the highest tier unit is almost strong enough to be useful, or you're about to unlock a new unit that is immeadiately useful, you might wait a bit and upgrade that unit, if unlocking the next fire sphere/skull takes much longer (for example lowest tiers of demons, pestilence, santa muerte)
3: Else, put it on the non-useless unit that has the LEAST fire spheres/skulls currently.
4: If there's a tie between multiple units with the least upgrade items, put it on the highest tier unit between them (higher up on the list)

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TL;DR Optimal strategy: Ignore units with uselessly low production until they become useful. Spread your fire spheres/skulls as much as you can on the useful unitys. On ties, put it on the highest tier tied unit.

This is mathematically the best strategy and no amount of experiments will change that. The same strategy has been proven to be optimal in multiple incremental/idle games where similarly higher tier units/buildings/antimatterdimensions etc. produce the lower tier units and only the lowest tier unit produces actual currency. So there has been a lot of gameplay experience from other games proving the theory correct.

[.DeaTh]

thanks for the breakdown Killerkonnat.

[Rage Fuel]

Originally posted by Killerkonnat:

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So, would this strategy work with Skulls?

Should we hold onto spheres until we can put them on a unit that would benefit?

For example I have Novemillions of Agriel and Septillions of Dantalion, when I create Agriel it only creates Quintillions and when I create Dantalion it also creates in Quintillions.

I have one sphere on each of them. Haagenti has Quintillions and also creates in quintillions and I would basically double Haagenti.

Obviously Abaddon and Lolmisho aren't worthy of a sphere.

I have four Spheres in my pocket. Should I put them onto agriel and Dantalion? Should I put one on Haagenti? Should I save them for when I can put them onto the higher demons? Am I wasting profit by not giving them to a demon?