Min/maxing new talent system/classes

[Nikola_Jokic_GOAT]

Hey, is there some spreadsheet with min maxing new talent system and classes?

On some classes I have for example portal setup, offline card power setup, gear setup, pet exp setup...I see some classes and setups give me more confection levels, milk, protein or healthy potato... But there are milion combinations, and I need to constantly check portal bonuses, class bonuses...and it is very frustrating at times.

[muljostpho]

I've just done whatever with mine so far without much care for the details. Reset one of them once to try to fiddle with it to get something specific to level 3 earlier, but so far I've otherwise let my aimless first-time decisions stick and I haven't saved anything to any of the save slots we've got available for each class's new tree.

But the way it works seems like all you can really do is to just intuitively feel it out on your own anyway? I mean, how would a spreadsheet for it even work? It's not like you can just buy anything you want at any time, each talent gets a lockout after you buy it so the earliest you can buy it again is after whatever number of purchases of any of the other talents. (I don't think it's the same lockout for each talent? I think talents in separate tiers have different lockouts, at least? And I'm not sure if it's even the same for different levels of the same talent either?)

I don't know, it just feels to me like any attempt to optimize them is going to be a game of scheduling. It'll be about picking a few specific talents on the board to prioritize and planning out the earliest that you can pick up each level of them and picking filler purchases to go in between those purchases. I would think that in a spreadsheet there could be no formula for such a thing, you could only take some time to plan something out manually. Have a column for points and a column for talents and just write in your choice for each point.

[adeyke]

I think the point was that, if you want to figure out what the right subclass is to optimize for a particular stat, you currently need to look through all the subclass bonuses and all the talent trees. A list of "if you want to maximize stat X, pick subclass Y" would be more convenient.

For talent tree setups, I generally have three: one for subclass exp, one for the capstone bonus, and one for just the top row bonuses. Those are the focus, but the talent tree system means I need to pick up a bunch of other talents along the way, while trying to skip the completely useless ones.

[SixHealthOfFury]

Rule 1: Raw Combat Stats are Talent Point dumps. Don't bother investing in those unless you're really close to passing a stat threshold needed for Portal progression.

Rule 2: Most Talents aren't worth investing in. Several classes have inherent Subclass bonuses that surpass whatever Talent investment you could ever do in the new Talent Tree.
For example, Agro has a Calcium Talent. My Digger is currently level 1660 and provides 7e95 calcium. 7 points into the Calcium Talent Tree gave 1.25e11, a major deficit. Because class Talents don't stack between classes, i.e., only 1 class's Talents are active at a time, the stat improvements are usually marginal.

Ferment stacking:
Base:
4.86e6 attack+health
24,287

with 8 stacks in fermenting as Reaper (1e16% bonus):
4.86e6
24,300

Oh boy, look at that less than 0.1% improvement.

Rule 3: Have one tree with Subclass Exp in mind, one without. You can gain 1-2 extra points in a stat if you don't need to get Subclass exp.

My advice per class:

Agro - Sweet Potato farmer and nothing more.
Demo - Skull Powder and nothing more.
Digger - Seed Chunk Farmer, then reset into Pet Capture and Renown after completing Seed Shop
Reaper - Pet Capture, Ferment, Pet Rank, Renown, Larva Quant after maxing out pet levels. Only go for Protein when desperate for Protein. Once maxed, reset to those 5 stats.
Cowboy - Prioritize Card Power, then Reincarnation Exp, Larva Quant, Renown
Scrounger - Item Find, Residue, Larva Quant, Card Exp, Pet Exp

As you can see, most Talent Trees are really bad and already need a rework. The developer should make all the Talents provide exclusive boosts that either compliment their Subclass Bonus or provide extra stats that cannot be done better by another class's Subclass Bonus. We need classes probably near lv 4000 or higher before their multipliers ever become better than a Subclass Bonus.

[muljostpho]

Earlier I threw a little sheet together earlier that just listed all the types of subclass and talent tree bonuses alongside each other. But that's about as far as I got in my "analysis" before setting it aside to get back to some other time. (read as: probably never, because laziness)

That and I looked back over the special skill nodes in the original tree and reminded myself of the fact that the specials for Farmer, Smasher, and Hoer are all just different flavors of damage boost (I always felt like these were all 100% pointless back when I was in that stage of the game when that original tree wasn't maxed out yet) and the special for Harvester affects worms (it's something but do we care anymore at this point in the game?) and the special for Rancher affects milk (it's something but do we care anymore at this point in the game?) Freeloader's special for items is the only one we should really care about boosting with the new talent tree's bottom node, isn't it?

Anyway, wow, pet levels can reach a maximum?! I wonder how far away that would be for me right now? My pets that have been active are in the neighborhood of about 2.2M levels and about 360k rank.

And 4000 in subclasses seems like such a far off target to me. (Is it possible in the game as it currently exists?) I'm up to the 1280-1300 range with my subclass levels. About 36 or so points to work with in each talent tree. Haven't broken past portal area 600 yet.

I'm still mystified by the way the new trees introduced their own new set of points to spend on them while the original tree has about 3.62M points earned and only needed 3720 points to max out all of the original tree's nodes (aside from the other classes' specials of course). They should've introduced something ages ago to put those excess points to work somehow, and leading up to the release of the new trees I thought that we were about to see them finally do that.

[adeyke]

initially, the bottom node on the talent tree was only active while the class's special talent was active. So the Agronomist's bonus to sweet potatoes would only work for 0.5 seconds after evading an attack, for example. This system meant that whether the bonus applied to finishing expeditions was down to just RNG, so it was changed to just always be active. The text wasn't changed, however.

[SixHealthOfFury]

Originally posted by muljostpho:

Anyway, wow, pet levels can reach a maximum?! I wonder how far away that would be for me right now? My pets that have been active are in the neighborhood of about 2.2M levels and about 360k rank.

And 4000 in subclasses seems like such a far off target to me. (Is it possible in the game as it currently exists?) I'm up to the 1280-1300 range with my subclass levels. About 36 or so points to work with in each talent tree. Haven't broken past portal area 600 yet.

I meant the 15/15 Pet Promotion Level. Sorry for the confusion. Also, we don't know how the Subclass Bonus will scale when people get to lv 4000, so it's entirely a guess. We can only level up a Talent roughly every 7 Talent Points, meaning the Subclass levels up 105 times for every Talent scale. It'll unlikely never scale past the Subclass bonus.

While there is a player who obviously looks like a hacker at Asc lv 78 (that player has 1/10th of my stats and is somehow Asc 78, LOL), the vast majority of end-game players are around Asc 64-68 and the highest player has a class at around lv 2000. A major growth patch will need to come out for anyone to reach lv 4000 subclass any time soon.

As of right now, it's mostly a grind for Ascendant Reduction, a.k.a, grinding for Sweet Potato and Skull Powder.

[Nikola_Jokic_GOAT]

Originally posted by muljostpho:

I've just done whatever with mine so far without much care for the details. Reset one of them once to try to fiddle with it to get something specific to level 3 earlier, but so far I've otherwise let my aimless first-time decisions stick and I haven't saved anything to any of the save slots we've got available for each class's new tree.
...

Yeah, but as adeyeke said, you have some same bonuses on different classes, and trees, and subclasses. For example before all this subclass module, Cowboy was my main for milk and confection, then gear and pet xp with Scrounger, then get worms and fries with Harvester...etc... Now I see for milk and confection I think I use smasher, for protein some other classes, for renown others...

If you dont have all day, gotta work and have kids, but still like to be competant and raise in global ranks, it is usefull to have some guidelines.
Especially cause default game help is very short without any details, similar is with website, maybe intentionally so that players explore and calculate...but as I said, dont have that much time.

Originally posted by adeyke:

I think the point was that, if you want to figure out what the right subclass is to optimize for a particular stat, you currently need to look through all the subclass bonuses and all the talent trees. A list of "if you want to maximize stat X, pick subclass Y" would be more convenient.

For talent tree setups, I generally have three: one for subclass exp, one for the capstone bonus, and one for just the top row bonuses. Those are the focus, but the talent tree system means I need to pick up a bunch of other talents along the way, while trying to skip the completely useless ones.

Thanks, I'm pretty much with same types of setups. Sometimes change for specific attribute or after getting some levels in portal.

Originally posted by SixHealthOfFury:

Rule 1: Raw Combat Stats are Talent Point dumps. Don't bother investing in those unless you're really close to passing a stat threshold needed for Portal progression.

Rule 2: Most Talents aren't worth investing in. Several classes have inherent Subclass bonuses that surpass whatever Talent investment you could ever do in the new Talent Tree.
For example, Agro has a Calcium Talent. My Digger is currently level 1660 and provides 7e95 calcium. 7 points into the Calcium Talent Tree gave 1.25e11, a major deficit. Because class Talents don't stack between classes, i.e., only 1 class's Talents are active at a time, the stat improvements are usually marginal.

Ferment stacking:
Base:
4.86e6 attack+health
24,287

with 8 stacks in fermenting as Reaper (1e16% bonus):
4.86e6
24,300

Oh boy, look at that less than 0.1% improvement.

Rule 3: Have one tree with Subclass Exp in mind, one without. You can gain 1-2 extra points in a stat if you don't need to get Subclass exp.

My advice per class:

Agro - Sweet Potato farmer and nothing more.
Demo - Skull Powder and nothing more.
Digger - Seed Chunk Farmer, then reset into Pet Capture and Renown after completing Seed Shop
Reaper - Pet Capture, Ferment, Pet Rank, Renown, Larva Quant after maxing out pet levels. Only go for Protein when desperate for Protein. Once maxed, reset to those 5 stats.
Cowboy - Prioritize Card Power, then Reincarnation Exp, Larva Quant, Renown
Scrounger - Item Find, Residue, Larva Quant, Card Exp, Pet Exp

As you can see, most Talent Trees are really bad and already need a rework. The developer should make all the Talents provide exclusive boosts that either compliment their Subclass Bonus or provide extra stats that cannot be done better by another class's Subclass Bonus. We need classes probably near lv 4000 or higher before their multipliers ever become better than a Subclass Bonus.

yup, got it. thank you very much. Really appreciate this so I dont have to test it all on my own.