(ENDING SPOILERS) The forgiving abusers theme seems questionable IMO

[Delta]

So when White refuses to go ahead with the heist against Blue Green explodes at him, accusing him of trying to deny his teammates their retirement fund, saying he's disrespecting them by questioning their skills and guilt-tripping him for abandoning the person who gave him everything and "made him something special" (the implication being he'd have been nothing without him).

That behaviour makes Green come across as the kind of abuser who puts on a nice front but only to manipulate and will browbeat and guilt trip without mercy the moment he's denied. He's clearly grooming White to be an obedient lackey who never questions him, and while it's portrayed the team didn't have anywhere without him he's effectively shaping children into obedient killers for his own benefit and he discards them the moment it's convenient or simply for questioning his authority.

Green shaped White into a killer and manipulated him into leading his friends to their pointless deaths, yet the game still expects White to forgive him and gives him significantly worse ending if he doesn't, with God refusing to give him the peace that comes with being written into the Book of Life and instead condemning him to wait around in Sheol for the next Judgement Day despite the fact that White saved them from imprisonment.

The choice may ultimately be up to the player but it still kinds of comes across as if the game is guilt tripping and judging players who don't choose to forgive the person who wronged them no matter what. I think that's a pretty questionable message seeing as not everyone will want to and shouldn't be made to feel like they have to forgive the person who hurt them and the implication that White only deserves peace if he does so made me feel pretty uncomfortable IMO.

Sorry for the rant. I should stress this didn't ruin the game for me or anything, overall I enjoyed the story and think the game as a whole is amazing, but that one element kind of left a sour taste in my mouth.

[Elbow]

I think overall the lesson is: Someone at some point has to forgive the other, Green is this way because Blue was abusive to him, Blue probably because of someone else etc.. If White chooses to not forgive seems like cycle continues, if he does it ends?

I understand the point of view that you shouldn't get abused, forgive and CONTINUE to get abused, but as i understand it both endings "incapacitate" green so to speak, so the abuse stops in both, but one of them stops the cycle? Kinda unclear to me what the book of life does to him but thats my interpretation

Another way i can explain is like, after doing the book of life stuff, White talks down to green kinda, or is dismissive of him, like yea ♥♥♥♥ off i forgive you and all that but i dont wanna be around you, which makes him avoid getting abused further

I don't know if im right or wrong it's just how i saw it but i'd love to discuss more

[ZeppMan217]

Seems you've forgotten Mikey's lesson on the whole good/bad stuff. TL;DR: it's all meaningless but dems da rules.

[♢ ۷ Ξ Я ₲ ℝ ♢ Ʉ ₦ D҉]

I agree it's really ironic, I chose book of death since I was abiding by the rules of the whole expecting/giving forgiveness thing. Green deserves to be written in the book of death since he's unable to forgive, so wouldn't that really be just abiding by the rules? White has already shown a ton of forgiveness (such as to Violet) and ultimately forgave himself, coming to terms with what he has done.

[ZeppMan217]

♢ ۷ Ξ Я ₲ ℝ ♢ Ʉ ₦ D҉ lähetti viestin:

I agree it's really ironic, I chose book of death since I was abiding by the rules of the whole expecting/giving forgiveness thing. Green deserves to be written in the book of death since he's unable to forgive, so wouldn't that really be just abiding by the rules? White has already shown a ton of forgiveness (such as to Violet) and ultimately forgave himself, coming to terms with what he has done.

Ah, but your White couldn't forgive Green, went against God's wish.

Look at this way: bad ending White doesn't get written into The Book of the Dead, just left to stew in purgatory for an eternity or two.

[♢ ۷ Ξ Я ₲ ℝ ♢ Ʉ ₦ D҉]

ZeppMan217 lähetti viestin:

Ah, but your White couldn't forgive Green, went against God's wish.

Look at this way: bad ending White doesn't get written into The Book of the Dead, just left to stew in purgatory for an eternity or two.

My point still stands, what an absolutely terrible life lesson. God punishing White for not forgiving the person that basically got him killed. Let's say in an alternate scenario, he was an absolute saint for his whole life, gets murdered, and then is unable to forgive his murderer. Welp, sucks to suck, purgatory it is. And plus, none of the crew (other than maybe Yellow) forgave Green. Ironic that God even chose White, just to ♥♥♥♥ him over. Besides that, the real bad ending should've just been God writing White's name into the Book of Death too, as he was unable to forgive Green according to the rules of who gets written where. Plot holes are added just for the sake of having the choice of where to write Green's name. Bad writing on their part for having that.

[ZeppMan217]

♢ ۷ Ξ Я ₲ ℝ ♢ Ʉ ₦ D҉ lähetti viestin:

ZeppMan217 lähetti viestin:

Ah, but your White couldn't forgive Green, went against God's wish.

Look at this way: bad ending White doesn't get written into The Book of the Dead, just left to stew in purgatory for an eternity or two.

My point still stands, what an absolutely terrible life lesson. God punishing White for not forgiving the person that basically got him killed. Let's say in an alternate scenario, he was an absolute saint for his whole life, gets murdered, and then is unable to forgive his murderer. Welp, sucks to suck, purgatory it is. And plus, none of the crew (other than maybe Yellow) forgave Green. Ironic that God even chose White, just to ♥♥♥♥ him over. Besides that, the real bad ending should've just been God writing White's name into the Book of Death too, as he was unable to forgive Green according to the rules of who gets written where. Plot holes are added just for the sake of having the choice of where to write Green's name. Bad writing on their part for having that.

Mate, it's not a plot hole, it's "God's will"©.

[The Angel]

But isn't the point of forgiving not about Green getting away with what it did but about White being able to move past it?
As elbow said, in both options Green is "incapacitated" but what does White does when he has the upper hand? does he punish him to fill the lust of revenge or does he tries to put it past him and move forward? There's a difference between forgiving and keep getting abused.

[Blue Candle]

From what I understand the game is confusing forgiveness to accepting terms and just walking away but because its a heaven themed game it says forgiveness. Like you forgive Violet and everything she did and even though it says you forgive Green it comes off as "If we ever meet again I am never talking to you again and just going to walk away instead of fight".

Plus the Book of Life seems like the best choice anyway. If you pick the Book of Death out of rage then you miss the opportunity to revive(?) yourself and your friends.

[Delta]

♢ ۷ Ξ Я ₲ ℝ ♢ Ʉ ₦ D҉ lähetti viestin:

I agree it's really ironic, I chose book of death since I was abiding by the rules of the whole expecting/giving forgiveness thing. Green deserves to be written in the book of death since he's unable to forgive, so wouldn't that really be just abiding by the rules? White has already shown a ton of forgiveness (such as to Violet) and ultimately forgave himself, coming to terms with what he has done.

That's a very good point, if God were judging Green he'd have gone in the Book of Death anyway, and if Violet forgiving White and not Green is enough to get into the Book of Life why is White expected to? While he wanted revenge it's not like it ever consumed him to the point of harming someone else or making him less empathetic, he isn't becoming another Green.

In an ideal world I agree we shouldn't punish people just to make ourselves feel good/satisfy our desire for revenge and only do so if it serves some societal purpose (prevent further harm or deter others), so if Green is going to be stopped either way there's no reason not to write him in the Book of Life. That said people aren't perfect and I think it's unreasonable to expect someone to let the person who ruined their life and tried to destroy the world get off scot free.

[Almea]

EDIT: Much longer message than I thought. Have a tl;dr: Forgiveness here seems more like "Don't make others suffer just for the satisfaction of making them suffer". And White put Green in Book of Death for personal satisfaction in vengeance, which is why it was viewed as bad.

For the "if god were judging Green, god would have put him in the book of death. So why judge White because he put him in the book of death", I see the difference being the reasons why they would do that.

God putting Green into the Book of Death is an impartial judgement made based off of Green's sinful actions and lack of kindness or forgiveness to the very end.

White putting Green into the Book of Death isn't some impartial judgement. It's a personal decision driven by vengeance and hatred made by White to ensure that Green suffers.

Putting Green in Life is White thinking "Whether I put you in life or death, I'll never see you again. So whatever, it's not like you eternally suffering will make me feel better". Putting Green in Death is "Whether I put you in life or death, I would never see you again. But I don't care, I want you to suffer forever even if I don't see it".

Now with the theme of forgiveness. White's "forgiveness" of both Violet and Green are similar in one way. That is "As far as White believes, he's never seeing them again". In that circumstance, there's nothing gained by saying "Go to hell" to Violet or "Go to hell but literally" to Green. The level of forgiveness shown by White is just forgiveness to the extent of "I'm never seeing you again anyway. So whatever, it's not like making you suffer will make me feel better".

I don't think that's a bad message, just forgiveness to the level of "Don't make people suffer just for your satisfaction". I don't think that's sending a message we need to just forgive our abusers in all cases, the forgiveness here isn't like "Okay I forgive you for abusing me, now let's be together again". The forgiveness given in both of these cases is in very specific circumstances.

[Pyrollux Jay]

I feel like it definitely couldve been written better but I do imagine it boils down to the putting in book of death being revenge based and people deserving death is a little ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up
that in conjunction with how red forgave white for not leaving but in this case being way more obvious how green was abusive and how violet reacted was definitely questionable in terms of being a conjunction but its no 'the medium'[the horror game]

[TheSeek]

Delta lähetti viestin:

The choice may ultimately be up to the player but it still kinds of comes across as if the game is guilt tripping and judging players who don't choose to forgive the person who wronged them no matter what. I think that's a pretty questionable message seeing as not everyone will want to and shouldn't be made to feel like they have to forgive the person who hurt them and the implication that White only deserves peace if he does so made me feel pretty uncomfortable IMO.

Just my 2 cents, but...i think that's exactly the point, presenting the absurd and uncomfortable situation of being forced to to forgive to be forgiven by god, which is quite literally in the bible, matthew 6:15: "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you don't forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.".

In this sense, if we want to fault something/someone for guilt tripping, judging, and presenting an uncomfortable situation, then we have to fault the bible/god itself, not the game or its writing, as the game it's simply following the rules of what it's presenting at that moment, and the game is not presenting a merciful god who judges you based on your actions or on what you did for him, rather one who jusdges you based on his own rules.

With this im not saying i sympathize with such situation, rather that the game and it's writing cant and shouldnt be faulted for faithfully representing the truth of who they're showing.
It'd be like faulting the game for presenting Hitler as a nazi...he was a nazi, and presenting him as such is the right thing to do, similarly here, god is, according to the bible itself, one who will only forgive you if you forgive your wrongdoers, and presenting him as such is the right thing to do, and this does not mean that the game agrees or justifies this, it's simply representing it as truthfully is.

[avie!!]

its a bizarre metaphor that sort of stumbles over itself for sure but yeah i think it was said best that basically putting him in the book of life means white is effectively cutting him out of his (after)life, acknowledging that even if he got vengence in the form of making him suffer in hell, it wouldnt make him feel any better nor would it resolve anything in the long run.

it's not the best written ending tbh, but i can understand how it comes off as forgiving your abuser (and honestly i kinda read it that way too initially...)

[a n t]

I can see where your coming from but a core theme of NW is forgiveness and redemption. While IMO the story is pretty weak, its not that hard to see where they are going with it.

Every Neon at the end of the day is sinful / done some form of evil. A lot of the characters in some way plays into the theme of forgiveness.

Red was able for forgive White despite some may argue lead his crew into death with Green. She was able to find redemption and is at piece.

Angels are sympathetic to the Neons. Hell, Rez has a bar for Neons. Its almost like they know they are bad but provide an open hand for them redeem themselves.

Green was not able to find redemption and continues the cycle of violence. White is betrayed by Green who is betrayed by Blue who is betrayed by someone else.

White is at the crossroad. Follow the path of Red or Green. Follow Red and forgive, White will retrieve redemption as well (book of life), end the cycle. Follow Green and continue retribution, do not retrieve redemption. Hell if you think about it, White will become the top Neon and retrieve the halo, literally replacing Green in both top neon and retributor, continuing a cycle of violence.

IMO they probably should have just flesh everyone out WAY more. I agree that Green is shaping everyone to do his bidding but we need to consider that they are already adult criminals, not children. While its not written that well, its implied that everyone is actually very close and worked together well (doing crime lol). Green at some point could have been a genuine mentor figure but when Blue comes into the picture he becomes abusive due to his own goals.

Now do we want White to follow suit as well? White is already a mentee of Green. What if in an alt universe, everyone dies except White. White may follow Green's path and also manipulate another group of criminals which continues the cycle of violence.

TBH i think the story is just not written well enough to leave holes that you brought up. Its a story about redemption which inherently needs nuance in its writing that NW just lacks.

[David]

Talking in a more general sense because I haven’t actually beaten the game yet, but I keep hearing about this ending, and this is not the first time in recent years I’ve seen people get unreasonably mad at a piece of media for suggesting it’s good/important to forgive those who’ve wronged you.

What’s going on these days? Why are people so out for blood? Maybe it’s all the Alan Watts and Krishnamurti and Dalai Lama talking, but forgiving everyone and letting go definitely seems like a thing one SHOULD be absolutely required to do in order to achieve spiritual liberation. Do we really want a bunch of people with unresolved trauma and grudges in heaven?

True forgiveness is recognizing that we’re all human, we all suffer, and we all act unconsciously and hurt others. The person who hurt you doesn’t know, I mean REALLY, experientially know what it is they’re doing. If they did, they wouldn’t do it, because they’re also hurting themselves. No human being in the history of our species has ever been made more happy or more at peace by being abusive to another person. They were acting with the highest level of consciousness and self-awareness they were able to at the time.