Bombardment is ineffective now

[russlog6]

Can someone please help me regarding late game bombardment, as it seems that the game mechanics has recently changed.

Now, 50 Planetary Exterminators cannot take down a shielded planet. There is small damage which fairly quickly cuts down troop numbers, but not population. I also noticed there is next to no infrastructure damage.

I assume this is due to the planet's shielding. In the past, bombardment would eventually destroy the shielding infrastructure and the effectiveness of the bombardment would increase substantially.

Is this as intended? Am I to use some other bombardment combo to perhaps bypass shields. I did try a few of the other late game weapons, but there was next to no improvement.

Late game this is game breaking, as it is beyond tedium to have to invade a 100+ colony race planet by planet.

[Nightskies]

Given its late game, this is probably a bug due to high processing demand, because of how shields work. I advise using the editor to remove the shield facility after a couple of months of bombardment. It's not supposed to resist anywhere near that much punishment.

I've experienced and 'reported' this in the past (not technically) but it's old.

(edit: this is if a Mk1 shield is resisting a ton of bombardment)

[Phase]

If it's the upgraded planetary shield, that can resist a lot and may be WAD Previously AI empires were not upgrading their facilities often, now they are.

[TheMac]

Originally posted by Phase:

If it's the upgraded planetary shield, that can resist a lot and may be WAD Previously AI empires were not upgrading their facilities often, now they are.

Interesting and helpful to know, assuming I can ever make it that far in a game. Shouldn't the mechanics provide some kind of a counter to that shield system? Would ion weapons do anything to a ground based facility?

[Nightskies]

Looks like there were changes since I tested it last. Indeed, the Mk 2 appears nigh unbreakable by bombardment.

However, a sufficiently strong enough raid will break it. With enough assault pods, you can commit a powerful assault without using any troops. Just be sure to position the ships before beginning the raid. If the shield is damaged (it doesn't take much), you can commence bombardment right away and finish the job.

[TheMac]

Originally posted by Nightskies:

Looks like there were changes since I tested it last. Indeed, the Mk 2 appears nigh unbreakable by bombardment.

However, a sufficiently strong enough raid will break it. With enough assault pods, you can commit a powerful assault without using any troops. Just be sure to position the ships before beginning the raid. If the shield is damaged (it doesn't take much), you can commence bombardment right away and finish the job.

Raids damage buildings? Never tried a raid before.

[Ozone]

You are supposed to use Special Operations (SpecOps) to destroy the planet's defenses before attacking. You can also send a spy to help.

Planetary shields are supposed to be an amazing defense against bombardment.

[russlog6]

Originally posted by Ozone:

You are supposed to use Special Operations (SpecOps) to destroy the planet's defenses before attacking. You can also send a spy to help.

Planetary shields are supposed to be an amazing defense against bombardment.

Thanks for the tip. However, as a late game tactic it seems impractical. As I said, against a 100+ colony faction any interaction of this nature is not the way most people want to be playing. As I intimated this faction can be bigger or evenly matched (a 100+ colony faction would be). Their fleets are almost, if not just as powerful as mine.

This is normal development for a game played at hard or above, restless etc. As often as not, one other race will develop to be large and there is no way to meet victory conditions without defeating this race.

Under the current mechanics I am forced to send in troops, conquer, then pick them up as soon as the planet is favorable, which is probably not much less effective than using spec ops. Also avoids bombing the planet to oblivion which is probably still needed if using spec ops. However this is grinding, takes multiple tens of hours and is ultimately self defeating, as the damage to my repution impairs growth and allows other races to close the gap.

Previous to this development in game mechanics, what I would do is position 10 or more overpowered fleets in positions around an area of the enemy's territory, launch them simultaneously at up to 10 planets, bomb those planet's to oblivion. A critical factor was to ensure that conquered territory fell under my jurisdiction and not some other race's.

Then I would move the fleets on to new enemy planets. It was possible to cut maybe 20-30 planets from the enemy in a matter of minutes.

It was also sometimes necessary to set up gravity trap planets to attract enemy fleets and sacrifice one or two of my fleets to keeping many of the enemy fleets bottled up in an eternal battle, usually at the opposite end of their empire.

Then I would conquer a forward position with troops to expand my territory and leapfrog to new target planets.

This method would eventually choke the race's ability to produce more ships and ultimately their defeat.

ATM fleet to fleet engagement is tit for tat. Any advantage I can bring to one or two fleet to fleet battles simultaneously is eroded by the AI's ability to control tens of invasions or battles where I am weaker.

I cannot see a way around this issue, apart from having a weapon to bypass shields, or lowering shields' apparent invulnerability.

I still think that a single very strong fleet should be able to destroy infrastructure, including shields after a few minutes. More than one fleet should be able to do it instaneously.

[russlog6]

Originally posted by Nightskies:

Looks like there were changes since I tested it last. Indeed, the Mk 2 appears nigh unbreakable by bombardment.

However, a sufficiently strong enough raid will break it. With enough assault pods, you can commit a powerful assault without using any troops. Just be sure to position the ships before beginning the raid. If the shield is damaged (it doesn't take much), you can commence bombardment right away and finish the job.

In theory, this seems like a neat solution. However, late game against an equally powerful race, it appears to be too unwieldy to put into operation. In this post https://steamcommunity.com/app/1531540/discussions/0/6953050670795961874/#c6953050670799796523
I describe how the strike needs to be against multiple planets at once and quickly to gain the element of surprise, before the race can organise fleets to the area. In this scenario I can eliminate 20-30 planets in five or so minutes. This may seem like a cheat, but in reality it is justified reward for the hours of staving of early game enemies, and grafting away on the research tree to build up my powerful fleets, all the while juggling a flagging economy.

In reality you need to avoid multiple fleet on fleet engagements. It becomes a tit for tat grind and all the while the AI is attacking at dozens of other planets.

I might also add that late game having more than two or three large fleets in battle around the same planet becomes unplayable because of lag etc. I don't use carriers anymore because it contributes to this issue (all those fighters and bombers). I no longer have the long delays in turning fleets around.

[russlog6]

Originally posted by Phase:

If it's the upgraded planetary shield, that can resist a lot and may be WAD Previously AI empires were not upgrading their facilities often, now they are.

What does WAD mean?

[Vyndicu]

Originally posted by russlog6:

Originally posted by Phase:

If it's the upgraded planetary shield, that can resist a lot and may be WAD Previously AI empires were not upgrading their facilities often, now they are.

What does WAD mean?

Short for "Working As Designed."

[Nightskies]

"Previous to this development in game mechanics, what I would do is position 10 or more overpowered fleets in positions around an area of the enemy's territory, launch them simultaneously at up to 10 planets, bomb those planet's to oblivion."

So to be sure I understand this, you're saying that Planetary Shields Mk 2 is a counter to your strategy, and now that the AI uses it, your strategy is nullified.

While that is true, it doesn't mean bombardment is ineffective. Bombardment remains one of the two ways to erase a colony without an editor.

I don't think there's a way to keep your strategy as effective as it used to be. Mk 2 shields are a hard counter to bombardment. Another way of looking at it is that Mk 2 shields slow you down. ...like they're supposed to, jeez...

Shield penetration weapons don't penetrate planetary shields. However, weapons that do over 70 bombard damage (namely the Eclipse Mass Driver and the Continent Exterminator, though with bonuses, other weapons can also hit over 70) can do damage through the shields to the thing they do that much damage to. So the 2 mentioned weapons can put dents in the ground military, and you can scratch the population with other weapons, but you're looking at the only viable way to beat shields is with some kind of ground attack.

Raids or special forces are it. Combine the two for ensured destruction. I don't think spies can damage ground facilities directly.

I often employ large raids to do lots of damage to soften or eliminate ground resistance. It's surely not as swift as total annihilation by bombardment, but the point is that it still works fairly quickly- far, far faster than shuttling troops around. Your invasion fleets can typically do this in spades- they don't have to use their troops. Also, a set of assault pods takes less space than a dedicated bombardment weapon. Think of them as a different kind of bombardment weapon.

Given that this is too tedious for you (I also find it tedious to paint the map in my color), either let the AI handle the military and/or invasions (I typically rely on automated invasions for the bulk of population reprocessing) or don't play on that scale. The automation can't match you at all, but it's good for handling the tedium.

I mean it; if it's not fun and engaging, don't do it. Let the advisors handle the boring parts of ruling your empire, and deal with their inefficiency by taking over only where you want to. Handle the important invasions yourself, and leave the bloat to it.

I'm sure the aforementioned small raid combined with a few suicide special forces would be the fastest way, but this isn't my style (bombardment to ashes), so I leave it to you to find the most efficient combination.

[russlog6]

Originally posted by Nightskies:

I don't think there's a way to keep your strategy as effective as it used to be. Mk 2 shields are a hard counter to bombardment. Another way of looking at it is that Mk 2 shields slow you down. ...like they're supposed to, jeez...

Firstly, I am talking about late game here against an equal or better faction. The tactics you mention are completely impractical in this scenario and will not open any possible avenue to victory. Sure, you may win a planet or two, but you will ultimately lose the game. You do not offer a strategy here for winning the game.

Also it might seem that I am talking about an isolated scenario. Let me point out my experiences to date with the game. For normal games I gain victory conditions with the nearest faction barely at 20% in about 95% of cases. For me this makes the game lack challenge, which is typical for players with a few hours under their belt. This is not a criticism of the game, but a reason why I choose to play at the higher levels.

More recently, at the harder levels, in most games I end up leading in victory conditions but not being in a position to gain victory because other faction/s have enough to deny outright victory, which necessitates taking them out. Invariably the faction will have 50+ colonies, in many cases 100+. I assume, maybe incorrectly, that there are many players facing this predicament. So I simply do not understand, how your suggestion of sending in spec ops is a viable strategy.

I guess I have to ask have you ever encountered this scenario, which is fairly typical for hard+ games? If you are purely speculating, then being scornful of a strategy that actually worked well is not, well let's just say, being diplomatic.

If you don't like my strategy, don't use it, but you should at least acknowledge that some players may not appreciate having to invade 50, 60 or 100 planets with troops or spec ops.

Originally posted by Nightskies:

Shield penetration weapons don't penetrate planetary shields. However, weapons that do over 70 bombard damage (namely the Eclipse Mass Driver and the Continent Exterminator, though with bonuses, other weapons can also hit over 70) can do damage through the shields to the thing they do that much damage to. So the 2 mentioned weapons can put dents in the ground military, and you can scratch the population with other weapons, but you're looking at the only viable way to beat shields is with some kind of ground attack.

Secondly, as far as the devs intentions, the impregnability of Mk2 shields, or their widespread application by the AI, has only just been a thing in the last week or so. It is a major change which was not signalled by them.

If the issue is the intended invulnerablity of Mk2 shields, why is it necessary to have to protect infrastructure 100% against the strongest attack possible? Surely there should be a trade off -- the stronger your attack is, (taking the tedious option of spec ops out of the equation) the more vulnerable the shields should be. Sure this balance can be adjusted to make it easier or harder, but not impossible. This just makes common sense.

Continent exterminators are/were meant to be planet exterminators, so now the devs have taken them out of the game. They are a late game weapon meant to be used late game. But now Mk2 shields have completely nullified them.

Why does anyone need to slow down the late game, which appears to be your main defense of the mechanic? And I am not just talking about slowing down the game, as I have repeatedly stated, it makes the game unwinnable.

Furthermore, this issue undermines victory against even smaller factions. Even against 50-60 colonies defended by AI late game, victory becomes a grind for many tens of hours, if you have to go from planet to planet. This is not slowing down the game.

Bottom line about slowing down the game. I don't think this is a thing, after all they just reduced the victory conditions by 10%. Why? I suspect it's more about the difficulties many players are facing with late game lag, than anything. So I'm still leaning towards the Mk2 shields thing being an oversight, in need of rebalancing.

Another critical complicating factor which makes victory unlikely in my scenario is that the devs have also recently increased the negatives to rep etc from invasions and bombardment, which means that while you are going from planet to planet, your empire's worth is being retarded compared to everyone elses. So you beat one 50+ faction eventually, but then have to turnaround and do a rinse and repeat on another faction. As I said, not winnable atm.

[Nightskies]

Sorry, I was trying to relate that I have no ... hmm ... bad feelings or anything ... about your strategy. Also, I don't mean to preach "my way works, so your opinion is invalid". I do, however, think that Mk II shields don't prevent bombardment from doing what it is fundamentally meant to do. I'm also certain your strategy isn't necessary to win, even against an overwhelming* enemy. More on these below.

"I guess I have to ask have you ever encountered this scenario, which is fairly typical for hard+ games?"

Not the Mk II shields (yet), but I know this strategy of using raids isn't impractical at all. I use it to damage planetary defenses, just as I advise you to do, only you follow up with bombardment instead of invasion. I've used it to make invasions cost no to little troops, allowing swift subjugation of entire empires without having to shuttle troops as reinforcements, but rather only as garrisons. Assault pods are cheap and effective for destroying ground defenses- which incidentally includes planetary shields- and are a profitable tool employed against ships.

Just in case there was confusion, a raid doesn't need troops. It's completely free, aside from having the assault pods and the 30 sec-ish reload time, like fighters.

I regularly play difficult galaxies where I'm not just facing a rival- it's overwhelming opponents, *if they had the guile and capabilities players do. Using raiders as a prelude to an invasion is a cheesy habit I'm telling myself to stop doing but find it hard to resist. It makes invasions so much easier. So I generally don't recommend it. In this scenario, it is not so cheesy, but rather, practical.

To win such wars against superior forces, I also typically use distraction, including a blitz to capture a bunch of their mining stations. I don't use assault pods in main battle fleets, their purpose is solely to destroy and/or survive. Lightly armed and defended ships with mid-tier tech are ideal marine assault vessels. A trio of specialized frigates (or a cruiser if the race has poor frigates for the job, like the Teekan) can easily capture a mining base swiftly enough. Their target is a civilian station, and they use timid retreat settings, and their cheap cost makes them very disposable. They can even earn more than they're worth if you choose to scrap stations instead of keeping them as targets for the enemy to busy themselves with.

Lots of cheap construction ships work great with this strategy. Lots of raiders end up disabled in deep space, in part thanks to how the background simulation works (especially in the late game), and those construction ships keep your distractions ... distracting.

It's easy enough to rally enough such marine assault fleets to multiple targets, or just to make a modest little supporting fleet that costs only a few thousand in maintenance. The Mk II shield generator, I've already tested, looks to take two hits from a raider to destroy, but only one hit is needed to disable it. A raider has very weak stats. You don't even have to defeat the defenders, just a little luck with a small force is enough. 10 or so raiders (10 assault pods), more if there are many targets (troops, facilities, not population/militia) present. And if the attempt fails, you get a free attempt every 30 seconds. Considering how much it takes to bombard a population into oblivion in mere minutes, this isn't too much, though I understand every moment counts when you're distracting with entire attack fleets. Have you tried a suicidal invasion fleet attacking a fortified world? Those defense bases make a very nice distraction, too. It'll also draw their own invasion fleets away from your front.

The spec ops are just a tool to ensure the raid destroys the shield quickly. Just one (not an entire transport full of them) combined with a small raid is probably enough, but I didn't test that. As Ozone said, spec ops specialize in destroying facilities. Including a single small troop ship in your bombardment fleets for this purpose- ensuring swift shield destruction- also isn't asking much. I ask that you try the strategy yourself before decrying it. I admit this, about spec ops, is speculative coming from me, but the rest, not so much.

Regarding it being an un-fun strategy to use special forces to bring down The Shield? Hm. Fair enough. If we go with that, though, it applies equally all around- the game shouldn't be adjusted to your personal taste.

Now, regarding why it isn't necessary to bombard to oblivion? I have done all the following, at some point, and have been effective. Multiple invasion fleets of sufficient size can unload overwhelming invasions one after another in a few more minutes, granting far faster growth for victory conditions than bombardment. A late-game empire can saturate spies in orders to destroy their spaceports, stifling their ship production and chewing their money (a comparatively easy task for spies). You can target their Caslon and choke them out of fuel. You can intercept their fleets at a system en-route to your capital with good intelligence (long-range sensors), where they'll hardly fight back while your fleet(s) pound on them one after another. Your capital can be saturated with mass long-range defense bases, making the enemy suffer immense losses (never rely on defense bases alone). You can make that 'distraction fleet' a missile fleet of great size with blaster support, and, keeping your eye on it to ensure it doesn't get a fleet dropped on it while in simulation mode, allow it to do FAR more damage than it takes. The suicide invasion fleet has proven time and again to be a powerful draw, especially when at their home system. There are more strategies to employ. Suffice it to say, you don't need to be able to mass-genocide their colonies to win.

I don't dispute the strategy's effectiveness or appeal in lieu of Mk II shields, but similarly, a hit-and-run skirmish fleet loses effectiveness against jump inhibitors. That's what it's supposed to do.

Regarding "Continent exterminators are/were meant to be planet exterminators", it appears that bombardment ... has a barrier...? (*snork* sorry, I have dad joke disease if it wasn't apparent enough - not mocking you)

The purpose of bombardment is to either weaken or annihilate a colony. Both Continent Exterminators and the Eclipse Mass Drivers actually weaken a colony's troops through shields as it is, so that function remains. For annihilating a colony, demanding that the shield be disabled first through other means isn't a big ask, given how easy it is to disable. Just two more commands (get in position and raid) and the mindfulness to do it. Or smack it with suicidal spec ops with one command (according to Ozone, which I don't doubt works). Using both will surely result in quick success.

I see the frustration with bombardment weapons being rather useless in this situation and agree with that. This goes beyond shields, however. They're rather useless even when bombarding targets without shields. They're expensive, big, and don't do much more damage than conventional weapons, especially torpedoes and blasters. A normal battle fleet without them can obliterate a colony with just a little more time, and be a lot more effective in battle. And a small specialized fleet for bombardment doesn't do enough damage to warrant making. Because of this, bombardment weapons have been a trap that the AI constantly falls into. If the devs saw fit to make dedicated bombardment weapons a way to bypass shields, I wouldn't protest, but even that wouldn't warrant their existence- they'd still be nearly worthless because assault pods are more efficient tools to disable shields in nearly every regard- it'd just be easier and a little faster to use bombardment weapons.

If bombardment weapons did far more damage to the point that a small fleet equipped with them could rival a large fleet of conventional weapons at bombarding, and it could overwhelm shields (even if a little), then they'd be worthwhile. Or if they made them small, inexpensive weapons, maybe. Or if they performed with some efficacy in space combat, like conventional weapons are at bombardment. Or if conventional weapons were abysmal or even incapable of bombarding. And so on.

The way I see it, Mk I planetary shields are also completely worthless. A planetary shield has one job. Severely weaken or stop bombardment- at least from conventional weapons. I don't protest that it also mostly stops dedicated bombardment weapons. The AI very, very rarely bombards (but they do), and barely slows down anything since they stop working as soon as they're scratched (and this happens quickly since 1/20 shots penetrate the shield, and only 1 hit should (see first post) disable the shield). Mk II still gets little value since the AI barely bombards. So that the MK II actually works is, in my mind, laudable. Like a curse in an RPG, though, it's more for the player to deal with than for the player to use.

To that, I restate: play how you want. That could include modding the bomb to do 100 facility damage, which will destroy the shield. Or remove planetary shields tech entirely. Personally, I'm delighted that the AI uses shields that require a ground assault to destroy. It's very... Star Wars-esque.

I don't clearly understand your point here:
"Furthermore, this issue undermines victory against even smaller factions. Even against 50-60 colonies defended by AI late game, victory becomes a grind for many tens of hours, if you have to go from planet to planet. This is not slowing down the game."

I think you're saying that preceding bombarding 50-60 shielded colonies with raids is a slog, but ... isn't slowing down the game? If you're suggesting that raiding 50 colonies prior to bombarding them is a slog, that's really a subjective thing to say. I can, and do, it with reasonable speed for invasion, which is certainly slower than "bombing 20-30 colonies in minutes". In any case, automation certainly doesn't take 10 hours to dominate 50 colonies with sufficient forces allocated. I've relied on automated invasion before by manually assigning attack points to individual invasion fleets. They're really not bad at it, given that I had sufficient ground forces and transports to draw from.

Regarding the 10% drop? Yes, it appears the game is best ended before it goes on too long. I vaguely recall a dev statement about that. However, if they overlooked the Mk II shield and it is stronger than intended, then, what could its intended purpose be if it doesn't stop bombardment? What is the point of the Mk I shield generator? Why do bombardment weapons perform so badly? Non-rhetorical questions, open to anyone.

Also, if your computer can't handle fighters being present, why are you running that galaxy?

[frankycl]

Don't want to argue with you about the shield-strength, etc. - or if they are OP, but...

Originally posted by russlog6:

(...)
Secondly, as far as the devs intentions, the impregnability of Mk2 shields, or their widespread application by the AI, has only just been a thing in the last week or so. It is a major change which was not signalled by them.

...this is not correct, because in the change-log for the Discovery-update was written:

PLANETARY FACILITIES
• Significantly reduced costs for all planetary defense facilities
• Colonies will now upgrade planetary facilities when higher facility in same family is available, and when planetary facility construction is automated and can afford

[APhoenixSoaring]

I can't help but think raiding is not working as intended.