Now that the dust has settled - why did they do it?

[i do games]

Why did Developerman take a flawless 4x game and intentionally ruin the best features whilst investing tremendous devtime into things Literally Nobody Wanted (very poor '3D' graphics that add absolutely nothing to the experience, for example)?

Why didn't Developerman just build upon the things that worked & made the game enjoyable and tweak/remove the things that didn't?

[CHOO CHOO]

The devs did a lot of under-the-hood work to actually make the game run in 64 bit, which is one major improvement...and, as far as I can tell in comparison with DW:U, also the only one.

I don't want to disparage their hard work, but I'm honestly also baffled by their priorities. DW2 obviously took a lot of work, but it's really not much of an improvement over DW:U.

The move to 3D was especially wasteful, since, pardon me, most of the 3D visuals are extremely rudimentary if not outright ugly and also completely superfluous in a game that still takes place on a 2D plane.

[Premium]

The "3D" aspect something I really don't understand people constantly praising about either.

They constantly talk about how an amazing upgrade it is over "flat" space games, more often than not making some less-than-subtle barbed jab at Stellaris, when DW2 literally also operates on the same flat, 2D plane.

The simple sprite model of DWU would likely still work fine in DW2. The freelook 3D camera is, at best, a temporary novelty and I'm pretty confident most people still playing the game is probably using the much more useful top-down view, maybe the default "isometric" view if they haven't discovered it yet.

Even the firing arc mechanic doesn't really need a 3D model to work.

[icedude94]

I personally would've liked the game to remain 2D but see the sprites turned to 2D animations at a higher resolution and the graphics made similar to Star Sector. That game has that plus firing arcs and it works as a top down 2D game with really cool ship to ship combat.

This game is a passion project for the developers and they have a vision of a goal at the end. It's their first time working with 3D and I think they have more plans in the future for what that will allow them to do gameplay-wise.

It definitely has problems with collision right now like with ships repeatedly nose diving and bouncing off a planet as they try to path to the other side of it.

I've seen 2 ships duel each other in a spiral dance for so long they ended up so far below the normal space that I could barely make them out when zoomed all the way in. It makes me wonder if 3D fleet formations are planned for the future like in Homeworld.

It wasn't a smooth release but it was the same for the first game. The first game took a couple years to get good with the first expansion and I remember back then the races gradually getting their own unique ship and station sprites.

They're definitely aiming for a lot more uniqueness between the different races other than just stat bonuses and sprites. Still though, the game feels incomplete compared to the first game and I hope the sales were good enough that the publisher will support them in completing their vision for this game.

[jorgen_cab]

I don't agree that the change from 2D to 3D was a bad move... it does add to the overall epic feeling of the vast galaxy and mood of the game allot... in my opinion. I am in no way a graphics junkie as I play my favourite game like Aurora 4x for example.

Personally I enjoy the more complex and interesting combat model in DW2 than I did in DW1 for example.

I don't feel there are many important things they actuallt removed from the game but rather added and expanded on mechanic under the hood to make it function better and adapt it to an even bigger galaxy.

The basic game is just the blue print for what is to come in the next few years, that is for sure. Expect the game to go in directions that DW1 never did... I'm mostly looking forward to expanding game mechanics which we did not have in DW1 in addition to more species. The game need more mechanics for empire politics and faction relationships and diplomacy. It currently mostly is an economic simulator with some combat thrown in once in a while. I would like to see culture having a bigger impact that diffrentiate empires even with the same species and how empires with multiple species work or don't work as a result. Perhaps some system where planet government have some independent rights, depending on culture and government types...

[AK_icebear]

Add me to the list that finds the sequel an improvement, including the graphics. I do worry they will discourage ship modding, so maybe Starsector high quality sprites would be better in that regard - but the base game is better than base DW1 in my opinion.

[Tristar Union]

I can't comment as to whether 2D sprites work better mechanically for combat calculations but from a purely aesthetic/immersive POV, I definitely prefer the new 3D. And I like the actual design of the ships and bases. There's something "real-world" about them, unlike the more cartoony designs in Stellaris. The designs in DW2 remind me a little of the awesome ship designs in the old Homeworld RTS.

[CHOO CHOO]

You haven't looked at Homeworld in a long time, then. Homeworld is the gold standard for soft sci-fi spaceship design; DW2 is probably the artist's first foray into 3D. HW ships are both aesthetic and pracical-looking, DW2 ships are neither.

Human: Pinstriped and corseted, look like a dressing room accident.
Mortalen: Blocks with blocks and some blocks sticking out.
Teekan: Look like stellaris humanoid ships, but backwards.
Ackdarians: Weird ♥♥♥♥.
Boskarans: Don't make me laugh.

And so on. It's neither realistic nor pretty. I really encourage you to make an actual visual comparison of HW and DW2 ships.

[Tristar Union]

"Homeworld is the gold standard for soft sci-fi spaceship design" I can only agree with that. To this day, I've not really seen any game come close to HW's designs. I'm not saying DW's ships are directly comparable, just that I see "echoes" here and there in some of the designs.

Your dismissive review of each race's ship-sets doesn't really make sense to me. I'm currently looking at each race's ship design sheets (the ones from the pre-release DDs) and they look pretty good.

Do they look as good in-game? No. But that's less a matter of terrible design and more a matter of the limited presentation potential once assets are transferred to the in-game graphics engine (narrow FoV, reduced polys/textures, static lighting, etc) and, perhaps more importantly, a complete lack of ability to build a "perceptual understanding" of the designs, using dramatic prescripted close-up cutscenes (such as those seen in Homeworld scenes).

I'm not saying they are the greatest designs ever, I'm saying they are pretty good, considering their constraints and budget. And they are without a doubt better than those of Stellaris, imo.

[CHOO CHOO]

Fair points. I still don't like any of them (except maybe the human escort?), but your perspective is reasonable.

[jorgen_cab]

If you dislike the ship model is just a very personal opinion.

In my opinion given the resources available to the DW2 team the game looks pretty good in almost all respects. It is not an RTS game like homeworld and neither is it trying to be one, thus combat is never going to be that involved in any way, it simply would not work.

Neither is there any need for graphic to be allot more detailed than what it currently is, there is a thinn line to walk beteen eye candy and practical limitations and for the scale the game are representing.

The move to 3D is clearly a point of if you like it or not, not whether it is a bad move. In my opinion it is a logical step as it give more interesting detail to combat that we did not have in DW1, which clearly is a development over the old game.

If you want to play DW in 2D you can still play DWU becasuse it, after all, are quite similar to DW2.

[Problem Solver]

I think this game was a good improvement over DW-U. Devs still have a way to go adding some new playable races and fixing a couple annoyances (bugs)

[MaGicBush]

Personally I like the switch to 3d, and things are much better in this version under the hood as people have said. To each his own I guess. Go play DW:U if you like the older game more.

[L-laine]

Originally posted by Premium:

The "3D" aspect something I really don't understand people constantly praising about either.

They constantly talk about how an amazing upgrade it is over "flat" space games, more often than not making some less-than-subtle barbed jab at Stellaris, when DW2 literally also operates on the same flat, 2D plane.

The simple sprite model of DWU would likely still work fine in DW2. The freelook 3D camera is, at best, a temporary novelty and I'm pretty confident most people still playing the game is probably using the much more useful top-down view, maybe the default "isometric" view if they haven't discovered it yet.

Even the firing arc mechanic doesn't really need a 3D model to work.

I've been saying all along they only really needed to upgrade the 2d ships to hi-def (or 2.5D) and better art style with improvements to the engine and content (more species/primitive worlds/ economy, ship design, UI, etc) and they would have been all set for a successful sequel. Hell if they had just not gone with the ugly 3d ship models (which likely take up too much processing power) maybe they could have kept in planetary orbit mechanics from the first game. Also the fact that the 3d models basically killed the ship design creativity that base game had since you have "hardpoints" you only get a limited amount of space which is not cool.

[Admiral_Webbco]

The move to 3D helped me enjoy a greater depth of immersion and rp, which is where it's at with DW2.

[CHOO CHOO]

Originally posted by L-laine:

Also the fact that the 3d models basically killed the ship design creativity that base game had since you have "hardpoints" you only get a limited amount of space which is not cool.

Yeah, that one makes me pretty sad every time I play. No more tinkering with highly specialized ship designs; everything just kinda in the middle.