Multiple designs of the same class?

[=яενєηąŋŧ=]

So I've generally got the design aspect down fairly well at this point, but I've run into an issue:

Even if the individual designs are set to Manual, the game only seems to want to keep one design for a given hull class as active.

For instance, I have a Fleet Destroyer design with torpedoes as a general line unit for my combat fleets, but also want to have a Heavy Destroyer design with nukes to support my invasion fleets.

Now, the fleet builder only has "Frigate," "Destroyer," etc for the purposes of manually reinforcing, but I can manually build each ship and assign them to the desired role to get around this. It's a pain, but it's workable.

The issue, though, is that whenever I update one or the other, the other one gets automatically obsoleted, which causes all of the Destroyers of the opposite type to want to retrofit to a design not appropriate for the role I'm trying to use them for.

The only way around this seems to be to manually refit every individual ship to the design I want every time I unlock a new component line, and it's incredibly time-consuming.

Am I just missing something here? I had been hoping that the ships would at least try to stay within their hull sub-type, or follow their name line, IE "DDH X -> DDH X v2" rather than just going "DDH X -> DDF Y"

[ElanaAhova]

Yes, is tedious. Unfortunately, all four models of frigate are one 'role.' Updating any of the four updates them all. Tedious. You can control which 'model' - by setting update OFF in design window /per model.

I've recommended to the designers that they change code and make each of the four models their own 'role.' Send 'em a +1...

[=яενєηąŋŧ=]

Wow, that's a pretty glaring oversight. Practically defeats the purpose of even having multiple sub-hulls in the first place if the game's just going to go "now pick one lmao"

[Nightskies]

When designing fleets, you can specify a specific design to use in the fleet. So you can include bombing destroyers in an invasion fleet, and torpedo destroyers in an attack fleet. You can't have multiple designs of the same hull in a fleet, but that's hardly a detriment. For the designs intended for these roles, be sure to set them to NOT auto-retrofit. And when you do upgrade the designs, remember to change the specified design to the new one in the fleet designer- it will not automatically change to the upgraded version. Those fleets will then retrofit all their ships of that hull to the specified design- even if the individual ships are set to not auto-retrofit.

The most recent design will be what any ship with auto-retrofit will go into when not part of a fleet (unless the fleet's specified design is "most recent"). Thus it is practical to make patrol ships the most recent design. This is easily kept up by copying the patrol design after updating other designs for the hull size and saving it. Or upgrade it last.

Using automated fleet formation will often throw other designs into a fleet, which will eventually be retrofitted to the fleet's specification.

[FlashXAron ☕ (Alex)]

This and many other issues are a reason, why the game will always be a nerds "ONLY" game. Playing it is tideous , special managing ships, spies , ports ...

Wait until you conquer another civ, when you have over 1000 and more, different blueprints in your ship designer, and many will not upgrade and if they do, you have to delete the design ONE BY ONE, or search on the map to retofit them also one by one ...
the worst is, that at least , deleting ALL "0" used blueprints , would be easy to code, but we still have this since the the first day of DW 1 and the dev gives a sh... , seems he isn't playing his own game, or he would already have changed YOUR ISSUE, which could be easy solved with a "LOCK THIS DESIGN" button, with roles and the 0 used blueprints one, with a DELETE ALL not used and locked BUTTON also ...

[=яενєηąŋŧ=]

I have annexed a couple other empires already, but after just retiring the military ships I took over I never bothered looking at the civilian ships or stations. Now I'm wondering if the mining stations are all stuck as crappy AI designs.

The civilian economy side was a cool little ant farm to watch for the first hour or so, but I've barely looked at it beyond clicking "confirm" when I get asked to build a new mining station since then. Once the "wow" factor wore off it became pretty obvious why 99% of other games just abstract that stuff. Honestly, I barely even bother looking at my 60+ planets anymore.

Far as the tedium and nerds-only aspect goes, I came here from Aurora, and I think Aurora has better QoL in a lot of areas, which is saying something.

[ElanaAhova]

Originally posted by =яενєηąŋŧ=:

Wow, that's a pretty glaring oversight. Practically defeats the purpose of even having multiple sub-hulls in the first place if the game's just going to go "now pick one lmao"

Totally agree.

[barrybeal]

Originally posted by ElanaAhova:

Yes, is tedious. Unfortunately, all four models of frigate are one 'role.' Updating any of the four updates them all. Tedious. You can control which 'model' - by setting update OFF in design window /per model.

I've recommended to the designers that they change code and make each of the four models their own 'role.' Send 'em a +1...

Its possible down the road with enough time and effort to take terms like DESTROYER and convert that into not just a size type of ship concept and automated it with a greater number of ROLES like Command Destroyer (more defenses - maybe more specialized weapons like Tractor Beams - Ion Cannons etc) - Attack Destroyer (Maybe even "glass cannon" Destroyer) - Assault Frigate or Destroyer (has Assault Pods for Enemy Ship or Starbase "capturing") - Escort Destroyer (has Starfighter bays verses glass cannons that have none). Limiting ROLE to currently be ship types simplifies the number of ROLES and the number of Fleets Types and simplifies the complexity of FLEETS. Assuming Stride Gaming Engine allows this you can expand the concept of ROLES to be more than size of ship and make more FLEET automation combos. Well and still run "acceptably" on older 3-5 ?? year old computer hardware.

its quite likely there was a design decision to start with simple automation now and focus on game development of the basics of making a game somewhat like Distant Worlds 1 with some added complexity. Not knowing how the Stride Gaming Engine would run on older computer hardware with more comp;ex automation.

Originally posted by FlashXAron ☕ (Alex):

This and many other issues are a reason, why the game will always be a nerds "ONLY" game. Playing it is tideous , special managing ships, spies , ports ...

Normally Game Automation (better ship or station design templets, what do you do when you capture a ship or a station or inherit ships, stations, or planets in a successful war), computer AI development (how does a computer player actually play the game) only happen well when players are done changing the features they like added or modify the UI design or otherwise change the original game design plan (For DW2 probably was start with DW1 design and add some features and new technologies when adapting from 2D environment to quasi 3D environment and make sense on a 64 bit multi-core new gaming engine (and there wasn't enough time and resources to make your own gaming engine) that can still run on older 5 years ?? gaming hardware and not charge $100 a game like all the pieces of DW1 together cost back in the day

Originally posted by =яενєηąŋŧ=:

I have annexed a couple other empires already, but after just retiring the military ships I took over I never bothered looking at the civilian ships or stations. Now I'm wondering if the mining stations are all stuck as crappy AI designs.

The civilian economy side was a cool little ant farm to watch for the first hour or so, but I've barely looked at it beyond clicking "confirm" when I get asked to build a new mining station since then. Once the "wow" factor wore off it became pretty obvious why 99% of other games just abstract that stuff. Honestly, I barely even bother looking at my 60+ planets anymore.

Far as the tedium and nerds-only aspect goes, I came here from Aurora, and I think Aurora has better QoL in a lot of areas, which is saying something.

Never heard of Aurora
https://www.pcworld.com/article/478074/aurora_an_intense_game_of_intergalactic_exploration_and_expansion.html

i have the patience to play a game with that level of detail with any level of intelligence. But sounds interesting - it sounds like over time they taken that greater level of complexity than DW2 is likely to be focused on and figure out ways to make the complexity of the game data easier to understand and designed the UI such that it was easier to find and monitor the extra information.

With enough time and resources, DW2 can be made more automated and less micro-management required, Erick has stated in his demonstration videos that is his intention to do. It can be very time consuming to do that up front then keep changing the game automation and computer game play AI every time you implement a new feature or implement a change that paying customers demand need to be implemented.

[Strategic Sage]

No matter how much automation is involved, a game is either A) simple enough that an AI can do it as well as a player can, or B) frustrating to players who will just turn off the automation when they can anyway because they don't want to accept what the automation routine chooses.

A game with a lot of detail and complexity is never going to be highly accessible for that reason. You can't have the DW goal - lots of player freedom and choices - and accessibility at the same time. You can have one of those, but not both.

[ElanaAhova]

Originally posted by Nightskies:

When designing fleets, you can specify a specific design to use in the fleet. So you can include bombing destroyers in an invasion fleet, and torpedo destroyers in an attack fleet. You can't have multiple designs of the same hull in a fleet, but that's hardly a detriment. For the designs intended for these roles, be sure to set them to NOT auto-retrofit. And when you do upgrade the designs, remember to change the specified design to the new one in the fleet designer- it will not automatically change to the upgraded version. Those fleets will then retrofit all their ships of that hull to the specified design- even if the individual ships are set to not auto-retrofit.

The most recent design will be what any ship with auto-retrofit will go into when not part of a fleet (unless the fleet's specified design is "most recent"). Thus it is practical to make patrol ships the most recent design. This is easily kept up by copying the patrol design after updating other designs for the hull size and saving it. Or upgrade it last.

Using automated fleet formation will often throw other designs into a fleet, which will eventually be retrofitted to the fleet's specification.

Except some of us (who play on smallest galaxy, never use the automated fleet thingy.

[D3st]

I think the dev designed it this way because in fact you have the FLEET ship and those who patrol around your empire.Fleet frigate,Fleet destroyer are tho i put in my automated fleet and in my fleet configuration menu.Fast frigate or heavy are those i use on auto patrol around my empire.Same for destroyer.I never put escort inside fleet mid game or late game,i use them on auto patrol mission around my empire.

About fleet invasion i will use the same fleet ship design that i use for my other fleets.When its come to OTHER template ship that you want to see inside the same fleet there 2 ways to do it.First what i do if i want bombard a planet is i start creating design(duhhhh) of ship that will bombard and i simply make a fleet of them using a new fleet template.When you lauch your invasion you can send both of them on the target.One will invade and the other bombard.

If you want to see let say 2 type of destroyers in the same fleet here a trick.If you create a fleet of 20 ships divided fleet template by 2.So now you want to create a fleet template using X quantity of ship design you want in and in the second fleet template you use your other designed ship template.Produce both fleet using your fleet creation bottom and once both fleet are out.....Well fusion them into 1 fleet and make sure to remove auto retrofit design for those design.The only micro you gotta do is when its come to retro fit them you gotta select them one by one and not use the retro fleet bottom.At least you can mass produce them and send them to fight relatively fast.

Tested on VERY HARD GAME.

PS:As you progress in tech and expand your empire you will see the number of template for military ship decreasing.By end game you should have 1 template of each class because design are soo big and you can put so many stuff that you don't need 2 design for the same (class).

[Nightskies]

Originally posted by ElanaAhova:

Except some of us (who play on smallest galaxy, never use the automated fleet thingy.

Though its an annoying thing to say, the very idea of expanding the ship designer in the ways proposed are ways to make the automation easier for more play styles. If someone were doing everything manually, this topic wouldn't even be a concern.

[Joram]

Definitely need to be able to design multiple roles of the same class of ship and have the AI upgrade it smartly. Even if it was just simply linearly upgrading along the same technology path and doing nothing else, that would be sufficient

[Dray Prescot]

Originally posted by =яενєηąŋŧ=:

I have annexed a couple other empires already, but after just retiring the military ships I took over I never bothered looking at the civilian ships or stations. Now I'm wondering if the mining stations are all stuck as crappy AI designs.

Can we ANNEX other Empires into our Empire? (You certainly seem to be saying that it can be done).i.e. absorb them into my Empire without invading and conquering them?

Right now I am playing a game of 1.0.5 as a Human Republic, and I have met another Human AI Empire. They want to make lots of agreements with me, Galaxy Map, Territory Map, Migration and Non Aggression. The problem is that I am a lot bigger than them and know a lot more than they do. So they will get a lot more information from me than I will get from them. I am reluctant to make one sided agreements with them unless I can eventually annex them into my own Republic.

How easy/hard is it to do that and how long can it take (IF it is possible)?

Regarding their Mining Stations and Civilian Ships, with the way the civilian economy and ships work and redesign/upgraded, they should upgrade into your own Active designs for the same classes of stations or ships, rather automatically. Just make sure you make all of their designs Obsolete, and they should upgrade into your own Active Designs.

[Tooslow]

Originally posted by Nightskies:

When designing fleets, you can specify a specific design to use in the fleet. So you can include bombing destroyers in an invasion fleet, and torpedo destroyers in an attack fleet. You can't have multiple designs of the same hull in a fleet, but that's hardly a detriment. For the designs intended for these roles, be sure to set them to NOT auto-retrofit.

Interesting - didn't know you could specify designs now. That's great. Still, letting them auto-retrofit up the design chain would be nice. Maybe one day.