Does anyone else feel that the Pugilist class is WAAAY too strong?

[Dopper]

There is simply no other class I fear in this game more than an enemy pugilist+poison. Bears, lieutenants, creepers don't even compare; the amount of damage an enemy pugilist can dish out against your mercenaries (especially your lighter fighters) is simply insane. At the stage of the game I am at, it takes enemy units usually 2-3 turns to get through my mercs armor and start dealing real damage, with pugilist it takes barely ONE and they are already dealing wounds.

The best I can hope to deal with them is stick a guy with a shield on them to draw its attention and MAYBE he last 3 turns in 1v1. If I don't take them out ASAP, they always bring someone down with them. *NO* other basic enemy I have encountered poses this much threat to me this far into game. Fighting with their fists and a sharpened stick stuck on the end yet somehow does more damage than enemy units armed with axes, sledgehammers and spears. It makes no sense.

tl:dr Puglists seem to out DPS every other class and enemy baring bosses themselves and I don't truly understand why. Anyone else feeling like they are too powerful or just me?

[Dies Fourth]

You just have to use tactics and the skills of other classes effectively.

I havent faced 1 in 4 days but i remember I'd
All my archers have poison so id load him with that 1st
then engage with a tank with a riptose shield or helmet
Hit him a few times using riptose
weaken
disengage for an attack of oppurtuninty
Re engage and smack him with wrath
i thinkkkk either disengage or run
send a shield wall pikeman to stop him dead in his next turn
somewhere in there the assassin { ranger } takes a few shots
I even have a lvl 13 sniper { archer } to welcome him to the battle from long distance

Some of that might not be 100% in the correct order but its not hard to handle them IF you think about it ahead of time.

Its VERY do-able you just have to use the tools youve been given

[Leto]

so besides the guys with the dagger, they should be the first to die, i have 2 fighters with me, everything that is dead doesn't fight back :) ... if you play according to the motto and turn everything into dmg machines, you don't need tanks

[drake_hound]

Nope don't feel the player Pugelist is OP, compared to Warrior builds or Spearman AOE builds, or even the classic Swordsman fighter.

If you discount the broken Bravery one shot of the Pugelist, which I do not even bother to take (since all fights end within one Turn) only need the swords man Zeal Bravery.
The Pugelist isn't bad, but no where near the flexibility of a Ranger for multikills.
No where near the survival rate with Disengage gamble like Brute or Swordsman.

So all in all it is a fun class but nothing OP it just fit the middle motor in players outfit.

Enemy pugilist. nope not really a threat, just make sure they attack your tanks and their attacks seem like childsplay, even disengaging without taunt they still hit like wet paper.
unlike other chainmail equiped enemies.

But they kill everything in light armor, so do almost every other enemy. especially at endgame, where your so called light armor hardly can take a hit.
one of the reason I removed them from the Arena setup, cause they can't take a hit.
The one time I was forced to use a Pugilist. I didn't even bother to activate it till the boss.
where it one shot the Champion with it's bravery.

If a Enemy pugilist is next and it is able to reach your lightarmor guys.
You mess up something badly :P

[Dopper]

Originally posted by Dies Fourth:

You just have to use tactics and the skills of other classes effectively.

I havent faced 1 in 4 days but i remember I'd
All my archers have poison so id load him with that 1st
then engage with a tank with a riptose shield or helmet
Hit him a few times using riptose
weaken
disengage for an attack of oppurtuninty
Re engage and smack him with wrath
i thinkkkk either disengage or run
send a shield wall pikeman to stop him dead in his next turn
somewhere in there the assassin { ranger } takes a few shots
I even have a lvl 13 sniper { archer } to welcome him to the battle from long distance

Some of that might not be 100% in the correct order but its not hard to handle them IF you think about it ahead of time.

Its VERY do-able you just have to use the tools youve been given

I'm about two months in, its very doable, that isn't the problem. The problem is that the amount of effort and concentration you need to put into dealing with one class of enemy compared to virtually all the others seems unbalanced for what amounts to basically just a guy and his fists charging at you. It doesn't seem like the amount of damage he puts out isn't currently balanced with the other classes, with the Pugilist outshining the ranger and warrior by currently doing everything they can do (minus class skills) but better imo.

When versing, the fact that you have the need to do all this for this one basic enemy type that should theoretically be on the same level as all the other bandit/deserter grunts on the map but somehow manage to out DPS the gang bosses suggests in my mind is currently far stronger than it should be, at least when fighting AGAINST.

While I might normally argue in favor of planning your battles carefully like this, you have to remember: you are doing this for just ONE basic enemy type, a fairly common one at that. Imagine putting in this much effort just to take down an enemy ranger or brute. You simply don't have to.

Each class should have its own strengths and weakness, no class should just be fundamentally 'better' than the others on every level as that trivializes the purpose of diversifying your roster. Rangers are glass cannons that can be countered by shields, 2H classes do high damage but lack mobility and are countered by rangers/archers, archers can mess you up from afar but turn to mice meat in melee, etc.

What's the counter to pugilist? Where's there drawback? Its not damage, its not health. Don't even try to say range because everyone minus archers and throwing weapon secondaries are strictly melee too.

Again, tl:dr they are simply too strong and are outshining other classes atm. I think there should either be dps nerf OR a nerf to their defense to justify their damage output.

[mrak20105]

The danger of a particular enemy consists of many factors. I believe that the most important factor is the location of the battle and the locations given by the game for the squad members. If the squad is scattered throughout the location, then your damage dealer simply will not be able to reach and neutralize the threat.

[zAcEz]

It used to be 2 handers that were dangerous because they will hurt clusters of troops. Now its pugilists for being able to kill any light armoured unit on the turn they act. But pugilists are like glass cannons. Take them out or lock them down before they act.

[drake_hound]

LoL the whole game is planning for one enemy, you ever let a Worshipper hit you ?
Oh if you do let him hit you, do tell how it feels when you have too many BUFFS stacked up.
You mean even a TANK keels over? yeah a Tank who have 6-7 buffs definetly keels over.

That is roughly 2k damage with 80% guard gone to dying status.

I think it is more a L2P issue, nothing threatening about a Pugilist, especially since AI still hits the closet target. failing that use more bears and block the path way.

And aside from deserters Pugilist the rest are a joke, atleast that one can attack 4 times.

TLDR: you have your opinion, but facts are that Pugilist aren't even remotely OP..
Considering they are just a mid engine type of enemy. if you can't handle them.
Then upgrade your gear and grind more.

[Dopper]

Originally posted by drake_hound:

LoL the whole game is planning for one enemy, you ever let a Worshipper hit you ?
Oh if you do let him hit you, do tell how it feels when you have too many BUFFS stacked up.
You mean even a TANK keels over? yeah a Tank who have 6-7 buffs definetly keels over.

That is roughly 2k damage with 80% guard gone to dying status.

I think it is more a L2P issue, nothing threatening about a Pugilist, especially since AI still hits the closet target. failing that use more bears and block the path way.

And aside from deserters Pugilist the rest are a joke, atleast that one can attack 4 times.

TLDR: you have your opinion, but facts are that Pugilist aren't even remotely OP..
Considering they are just a mid engine type of enemy. if you can't handle them.
Then upgrade your gear and grind more.

I didn't understand half the words you said, maybe a language difference, but I'll assume they're coming from a place of expertise. Yes, if you grind and upgrade long enough enemies do become easier, but then again my main point is that this 'mid-tier' enemy as you say poses a greater threat to you than some late game enemies.

[drake_hound]

Welcome to the MIDGAME.. where every enemy has one or two annoying units.
So you plan for those enemies. if not then you can easily get killed.

That is it. when you past level 6 you start the GEAR GRIND.. till you reach 8 and can use craftable armors, then from 9 to 11 you start another GEAR GRIND.. till you can make craftables at level 11.

That is basically it, if you are having a hard time, grind more or buy more equipment from Merchants.

That is one of the reason most people get bored past level 6, cause the whole game mechanic changed from STATS matter to EQUIPMENT is king.

[Dies Fourth]

Originally posted by Dopper:

Originally posted by Dies Fourth:

You just have to use tactics and the skills of other classes effectively.

I havent faced 1 in 4 days but i remember I'd
All my archers have poison so id load him with that 1st
then engage with a tank with a riptose shield or helmet
Hit him a few times using riptose
weaken
disengage for an attack of oppurtuninty
Re engage and smack him with wrath
i thinkkkk either disengage or run
send a shield wall pikeman to stop him dead in his next turn
somewhere in there the assassin { ranger } takes a few shots
I even have a lvl 13 sniper { archer } to welcome him to the battle from long distance

Some of that might not be 100% in the correct order but its not hard to handle them IF you think about it ahead of time.

Its VERY do-able you just have to use the tools youve been given

I'm about two months in, its very doable, that isn't the problem. The problem is that the amount of effort and concentration you need to put into dealing with one class of enemy compared to virtually all the others seems unbalanced for what amounts to basically just a guy and his fists charging at you. It doesn't seem like the amount of damage he puts out isn't currently balanced with the other classes, with the Pugilist outshining the ranger and warrior by currently doing everything they can do (minus class skills) but better imo.

When versing, the fact that you have the need to do all this for this one basic enemy type that should theoretically be on the same level as all the other bandit/deserter grunts on the map but somehow manage to out DPS the gang bosses suggests in my mind is currently far stronger than it should be, at least when fighting AGAINST.

While I might normally argue in favor of planning your battles carefully like this, you have to remember: you are doing this for just ONE basic enemy type, a fairly common one at that. Imagine putting in this much effort just to take down an enemy ranger or brute. You simply don't have to.

Each class should have its own strengths and weakness, no class should just be fundamentally 'better' than the others on every level as that trivializes the purpose of diversifying your roster. Rangers are glass cannons that can be countered by shields, 2H classes do high damage but lack mobility and are countered by rangers/archers, archers can mess you up from afar but turn to mice meat in melee, etc.

What's the counter to pugilist? Where's there drawback? Its not damage, its not health. Don't even try to say range because everyone minus archers and throwing weapon secondaries are strictly melee too.

Again, tl:dr they are simply too strong and are outshining other classes atm. I think there should either be dps nerf OR a nerf to their defense to justify their damage output.

For starters his armor is only medium so thats a weakness right there. so basically they are a glass cannon.

All you really need to do is what ive already mentioned or at least 1/2 of it.

You just need to watch them more, identify them on the battle field, look at their skills and set your troops accordingly.

They are a concern but def not OP imo.

iirc my sniper/archer 1 shots them all the time, thats his job. To 1 shot those and or bombers or the leader on my 1st move to take away all the enemies mobility.

You just need more game experience. Every game has that 1 enemy that your supposed to fear and account for right away. You need to learn them and your own troops. Its not about a lack of skill or anything besides " seat time ", deal with them a little more, get 1 and see how it does. Spear wall stops everything have you tried that yet ?

Try setting up your tank to take the 1st attack with a support spear person backing him up. By using the spear that shoved them back into the archers overwatch.
Them make that same spear person put up the spear wall .

You can get several shots on him b4 he gets close then several more once he does.

Use that archer super power lvl 13 to slow him down to 1/2 speed

In 7 days it was the " dog day " for 9 or more years the new players whined that the dogs were OP.

In SCUM it was the beepers.

I cant remember all the others from other games but theres basically 1 in every game.

Any enemy the players call out as being " OP " is there for that exact reason, and the devs love it. Its right then they know they are doing something right.

Theres at least 6 things you can do to limit his speed/life/damage.

Theyve been out for awhile now so a nerf doesnt seem likely and imo there isnt anything to balance or nerf. Before him it was bombers and the 2 handed weapon guys that hit multiple targets.
Just ask for help from other more veteren players rather than somethiung you have trouble with to be nerfed.
Players will help instantly, Devs will laugh constantly when we ask for nerfs.

Next time we get a new class im sure newish ppl will call that OP also.

[Dopper]

I saw you make this exact same 'OP' argument in another post, I think literally word-for-word verbatim, and I have to say its a pretty ridiculous take you are trying to push.

Originally posted by Dies Fourth:

Just ask for help from other more veteren players rather than somethiung you have trouble with to be nerfed.
Players will help instantly, Devs will laugh constantly when we ask for nerfs.

While I appreciate the help the devs aren't going to change anything unless they see people talking about it enough, thats how feedback for EA games like this work. Yeah they might ignore some idiot flaming in the discussions but I see how active the devs are in the community and don't believe they are as callous as you are trying to make them out to be.

Originally posted by Dies Fourth:

Every game has that 1 enemy that your supposed to fear and account for right away.

The guy that punches you? That's whole we are meant to be trembling in our boots at? Do you honestly think that in a game with giant mutant rats, sledgehammers and greatswords the size of human bodies, ghost wolves and literal undead ghoul abominations the great enemy we are supposed to be always on hyper alert for is some dude with a bit of metal stuck to his fists? Uh-uh, unless I see that in writing from the devs I think this is quite a stretch on your part.

Originally posted by Dies Fourth:

In 7 days it was the " dog day " for 9 or more years the new players whined that the dogs were OP.

In SCUM it was the beepers.
Next time we get a new class im sure newish ppl will call that OP also.

I think this is an unfair comparison, the most obvious reason being this isn't 7D2D and SCUM, not even in the same genre even. Whether or not they are 'OP' as you say in those games or not, I'm not here just to complain and whine about a tough enemy. Beepers and those dogs are DESIGNED to be scary enemies, pugilists are literally just one class amongst that shines above the rest.

And I am not whining here at all I am just trying to explain my take on a class I feel needs to be tweaked a little. I have sixty hours in the game, being playing on and off since game came out. I'll admit I'm newish its true, but I am not totally ignorant on how the game is supposed to play and feel just because I don't have hundreds of hours. I'm not asking for pugilists to be nerfed into oblivion because I lost a matched and am now gonna rage on the discussion boards; pugilist damage output even at levels 8+ is a reoccurring issue that I have noticed over several campaigns and playthroughs and it breaks game balance.

When I get hit with a sword, the damages makes sense. Axe, a little low, but makes sense. Sledgehammers hurt, but that makes sense because they are giant ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ hammers. Pugilists use just their fists, and they can DESTROY your guys in only a round or two. They don't FEEL balanced, they don't FEEL like they are playing on the same playing field as other enemies. The relative strength of pugilists enemies overshadows the enemies that should honestly be making the player keep an eye out for like AoE 2Hs, gang bosses, etc.

Yes there are tactics to take them out, but there are tactics to take every enemy out. Saying that a pugilists counter is good position and proper strategy is a bad argument because the counter to ALL enemies is good position and strategy.

Pugilists need a nerf because at the current time they are I feel intended to be glass cannons but they are missing the glass part due their defensive abilities and ability to outtank rangers and even shields.

Agree to disagree, I guess.

Btw I never had a problem with bombers, I always considered them and archers to be little more than a nuisance (non-player that is, player archers are strong af).

[mrak20105]

If a Pugilist is nerfed, it is the same as being kicked out of the game. He is a two-handed hero with medium armor, simple maneuverability, and no buff. What will remain of him if he does not kill? Only healing other fighters and ridicule. And mockery of lost content.

[Dies Fourth]

Originally posted by Dopper:

I saw you make this exact same 'OP' argument in another post, I think literally word-for-word verbatim, and I have to say its a pretty ridiculous take you are trying to push.

Originally posted by Dies Fourth:

Just ask for help from other more veteren players rather than somethiung you have trouble with to be nerfed.
Players will help instantly, Devs will laugh constantly when we ask for nerfs.

While I appreciate the help the devs aren't going to change anything unless they see people talking about it enough, thats how feedback for EA games like this work. Yeah they might ignore some idiot flaming in the discussions but I see how active the devs are in the community and don't believe they are as callous as you are trying to make them out to be.

Originally posted by Dies Fourth:

Every game has that 1 enemy that your supposed to fear and account for right away.

The guy that punches you? That's whole we are meant to be trembling in our boots at? Do you honestly think that in a game with giant mutant rats, sledgehammers and greatswords the size of human bodies, ghost wolves and literal undead ghoul abominations the great enemy we are supposed to be always on hyper alert for is some dude with a bit of metal stuck to his fists? Uh-uh, unless I see that in writing from the devs I think this is quite a stretch on your part.

Originally posted by Dies Fourth:

In 7 days it was the " dog day " for 9 or more years the new players whined that the dogs were OP.

In SCUM it was the beepers.
Next time we get a new class im sure newish ppl will call that OP also.

I think this is an unfair comparison, the most obvious reason being this isn't 7D2D and SCUM, not even in the same genre even. Whether or not they are 'OP' as you say in those games or not, I'm not here just to complain and whine about a tough enemy. Beepers and those dogs are DESIGNED to be scary enemies, pugilists are literally just one class amongst that shines above the rest.

And I am not whining here at all I am just trying to explain my take on a class I feel needs to be tweaked a little. I have sixty hours in the game, being playing on and off since game came out. I'll admit I'm newish its true, but I am not totally ignorant on how the game is supposed to play and feel just because I don't have hundreds of hours. I'm not asking for pugilists to be nerfed into oblivion because I lost a matched and am now gonna rage on the discussion boards; pugilist damage output even at levels 8+ is a reoccurring issue that I have noticed over several campaigns and playthroughs and it breaks game balance.

When I get hit with a sword, the damages makes sense. Axe, a little low, but makes sense. Sledgehammers hurt, but that makes sense because they are giant ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ hammers. Pugilists use just their fists, and they can DESTROY your guys in only a round or two. They don't FEEL balanced, they don't FEEL like they are playing on the same playing field as other enemies. The relative strength of pugilists enemies overshadows the enemies that should honestly be making the player keep an eye out for like AoE 2Hs, gang bosses, etc.

Yes there are tactics to take them out, but there are tactics to take every enemy out. Saying that a pugilists counter is good position and proper strategy is a bad argument because the counter to ALL enemies is good position and strategy.

Pugilists need a nerf because at the current time they are I feel intended to be glass cannons but they are missing the glass part due their defensive abilities and ability to outtank rangers and even shields.

Agree to disagree, I guess.

Btw I never had a problem with bombers, I always considered them and archers to be little more than a nuisance (non-player that is, player archers are strong af).

I have over 700 hours, many ppl have more by far then me and so far we've all said the same thing to you.

stop whining and trying to dumb the game down to your current skill level.

Play/learn and adapt. We're sick of new sno flakes coming in NOT learning and whining to get things nerfed just because they dont want or cant get better

I was trying to be polite but you just dont get it so heres what im sure you hear allllllllllllllllllll the time , its def a skill issue ,

" Git Gud ".

They arent called " stick guys " they are call pugilists for a reason, because theyve trained exclusively to do that kind of in close boxer style damage. Boxing is called the sweet science for a reason its not call " throw alot of punches " a true pugilist knows when and where to punch with how much force to inflict maximum damage.

Any warrior that trains extensively in 1 form of damage WILL get extremely skilled in that form of damage.

Reading the comments on your profile tells me what even your friends think about you. For some reason you had to make this personal so ok we all see what you want, the game to be nerfed so you can survive. NOT GONNA HAPPEN !

Not 1 person in this thread agrees with you that they are OP, not 1 person, so you ARE that guy whining, its not an issue if only 1 person feels that way, its a skill issue.

/unsubbed Goodbye

[Dopper]

Originally posted by mrak20105:

If a Pugilist is nerfed, it is the same as being kicked out of the game. He is a two-handed hero with medium armor, simple maneuverability, and no buff. What will remain of him if he does not kill? Only healing other fighters and ridicule. And mockery of lost content.

I know, its a bit of a tricky issue, and I'm not really sure what the right answer is. I think he just does too much damage atm. I don't want to get rid of him, just make his power level make sense.

[mrak20105]

Originally posted by Dopper:

Originally posted by mrak20105:

If a Pugilist is nerfed, it is the same as being kicked out of the game. He is a two-handed hero with medium armor, simple maneuverability, and no buff. What will remain of him if he does not kill? Only healing other fighters and ridicule. And mockery of lost content.

I know, its a bit of a tricky issue, and I'm not really sure what the right answer is. I think he just does too much damage atm. I don't want to get rid of him, just make his power level make sense.

You've been playing recently. You have little experience. And I will not say that “everyone has gone through this.” No, I didn’t go through battles at the initial level of the game with the Pugilist. And it was MUCH easier for me than for beginners now. Because many skills that are convenient for me have been cut off. But you focused on weakening the puzzler, but you should have focused on making it easier for beginners to start playing the game. In the future you will meet more dangerous opponents. We have already said above - the dagger of the Inquisition deals a basic hit, a few more hits (for each buff) up to 9 hits against my fighter. And then you will also ask the question - Is there too much damage? We just need to make it easier for beginners to enter, both with combat and with the economy. Let's say a buff on defense and salary, temporary, until reaching level 5.