The Three Things Battle Brother did better

[Vektor T]

First of all, I'm loving Wartales so much. It's like the Battle Brothers sequel we never had, with so much more depth and features. I overall do think Wartales is a better game, more deep and complete than Battle Brothers, the devs really knew the niche they where going into and how to deliver.

But while I do think Wartales scores higher them Battlebrothers most of the time, there are still three parts of the game I think Battlebrothers did better and Wartales could still improve uppon, be it in patches, DLC or a sequel, at least in my opinion and personal taste. Going from the less to the most impactul in the overall experience, here they are:

#1: Economy
- Overall I find the economy in Battle Brothers more enjoyable. It's was way harsher in the early and midgame, trading was really important to pay your bills and battles could be expensive, barely paying for themselves. Meanwhile in Wartales trading is kinda in the background, I never really bother except selling loot and excess resources due to weight constrains. Granted the resource and crafting system in Wartales is far beyond Battle Brothers and the main source of scarcity, but when I left Tiltren getting money feels very easy and supporting a big hoster not that hard even on Expert Survival (maybe the Tavern dlc spoiled it?).

#2: Injuries
- This is the only "streamlined" feature I truly feel in Wartales mechanichs over Battle Brothers. In Battle Brothers your soldiers had to heal HP and fix it armor after battle and it took time, meaning back to back fights where very difficulty if you don't have reserves (also another thing Wartales is missing: reserves). Larger battles felt more costly and consequential even when no ones dies. While I cannot say I was a big fan of permanent injuries in Battle Brothers, I liked very much the non-permanent wounds that took days to heal so a brothers could be out of comission for longer. Meanwhile in Wartales you just pop up a medicine for rare injuries and some insta repairs after battle and that's it, good as new.

#3: Formations
- This is the main feature I truly miss from Battle Brothers and the big reason I think Battle Brothers still worth playing even with Wartales being an overall better game. Battle Brothers battles felt more tactical and real because you soldiers did started lined next to each other, not spreaded all over the place. You had a frontline and backline, keeping your frontline in shape was important and flanking was a big thing. It also meant a bigger role difference between heavy frontliners, lighter/faster flankers and fragile backline supporters. The Surrounded and Supported situation in Wartales barely comes into play, while in Battle Brothers a single soldier by himself could be in serious danger, shieldwall was thing (a HUGE thing) and fighting organized enemies felt very different from fighting unorganized enemies. While I love the classes in Wartales, the way each soldier starts more like a blank sheet in Battle Brothers and how you develop their skills and which equipment they have matters most especially when you had to thing where they fit in your formation. Troops engaging and disengaging, pushing or retrating, maneuvering or holding line felt more alive in Battle Brothers, while in Wartales despite lacking formation troops 99% kill or die where they first engage wich makes the battles feel more static and less dynamic.

What you guys think?

(sorry for long post, *insert potato pic*)

[Galahad]

I haven't played Battle Brothers. But regarding the linear formation of troops and battle in a line, I will say that the computer AI in Wartails is simply not adapted to this. Enemies in the game attack either the first one they reach, or the weakest one without armor. They do not use any tactics, formations, etc. And if you give the player the opportunity to line up, it will be a one-way game.
That is, the game design of Wartails was originally built on chaotic and random battles in small groups across the map, and the computer AI was created for it. The game is focused on other things and, unfortunately, battles are not Wartails' strong point.

[Wandering Flare]

I agree, although I would say that Battle Brothers is more for when you want the gameplay and Wartales is more for when you want the narrative, and personally I would add 2 more points.

#4: Unit Individuality
- Wartales does a great job of creating a feeling that the troop comes together and bonds over the course of the run, even to the point of making relationships, as... completely inconsequential as the system is. But what it fails at is making the companions actually feel unique at the base level. Sure, they come with randomized traits and gain them randomly, but they just don't feel like anything but blank puppets with names. Battle Brothers' backgrounds that play into random events on the world map really gave me a feeling that these characters come from different walks of life, be it a hunter finding some useful plants while the company was moving through a forest, a witch hunter pulling an UNO reverse on a crowd about to burn a suspected witch or a houndmaster domesticating a wolf. I would also throw in the random event for having a varied ration because compared to Wartales' "optimizing" it just feels nice when your company randomly gets a spirit boost and your efforts to not be cheap on them feel recognized.

#5: Gameplay Longevity
- Not much to say here, even if it's the 3rd Noble Feud of the run, I still find myself invested in dealing with the crisis. In Wartales, once the region's story is done, it feels like there's barely anything to do besides just keep fighting random groups of enemies.

[Vektor T]

Originally posted by Wandering Flare:

I agree, although I would say that Battle Brothers is more for when you want the gameplay and Wartales is more for when you want the narrative, and personally I would add 2 more points.

#4: Unit Individuality
- Wartales does a great job of creating a feeling that the troop comes together and bonds over the course of the run, even to the point of making relationships, as... completely inconsequential as the system is. But what it fails at is making the companions actually feel unique at the base level. Sure, they come with randomized traits and gain them randomly, but they just don't feel like anything but blank puppets with names. Battle Brothers' backgrounds that play into random events on the world map really gave me a feeling that these characters come from different walks of life, be it a hunter finding some useful plants while the company was moving through a forest, a witch hunter pulling an UNO reverse on a crowd about to burn a suspected witch or a houndmaster domesticating a wolf. I would also throw in the random event for having a varied ration because compared to Wartales' "optimizing" it just feels nice when your company randomly gets a spirit boost and your efforts to not be cheap on them feel recognized.

#5: Gameplay Longevity
- Not much to say here, even if it's the 3rd Noble Feud of the run, I still find myself invested in dealing with the crisis. In Wartales, once the region's story is done, it feels like there's barely anything to do besides just keep fighting random groups of enemies.

I agree. Recruits of each class are only different from each other on their minor traits (if any). In Battle Brothers basically no soldier was the same. Plus, yeah, BB also had more replay value, but I accept that as different design ideas: sandbox vs narrative.

[GodfatherPlunger]

Economy is really easy on expert, (even without tavern dlc, which probably makes it trivial), but on extreme wages are quite a bit higher. But again, with passive income from the tavern that is probably irrelevant. I really dislike the tavern dlc design having such an impact on ingame economy.

[LeftPaw]

Battle brothers is something I play when I want to work myself up into a rage.

[alexander.serovoy]

It would be great if the drop required items depends on our behavior during combat: knocking out or killing with poison (without destroying armor) could increase the chance of dropping from this unit.

[Tlewnipla]

Originally posted by Vektor T:

Originally posted by Wandering Flare:

I agree, although I would say that Battle Brothers is more for when you want the gameplay and Wartales is more for when you want the narrative, and personally I would add 2 more points.

#4: Unit Individuality
- Wartales does a great job of creating a feeling that the troop comes together and bonds over the course of the run, even to the point of making relationships, as... completely inconsequential as the system is. But what it fails at is making the companions actually feel unique at the base level. Sure, they come with randomized traits and gain them randomly, but they just don't feel like anything but blank puppets with names. Battle Brothers' backgrounds that play into random events on the world map really gave me a feeling that these characters come from different walks of life, be it a hunter finding some useful plants while the company was moving through a forest, a witch hunter pulling an UNO reverse on a crowd about to burn a suspected witch or a houndmaster domesticating a wolf. I would also throw in the random event for having a varied ration because compared to Wartales' "optimizing" it just feels nice when your company randomly gets a spirit boost and your efforts to not be cheap on them feel recognized.

#5: Gameplay Longevity
- Not much to say here, even if it's the 3rd Noble Feud of the run, I still find myself invested in dealing with the crisis. In Wartales, once the region's story is done, it feels like there's barely anything to do besides just keep fighting random groups of enemies.

I agree. Recruits of each class are only different from each other on their minor traits (if any). In Battle Brothers basically no soldier was the same. Plus, yeah, BB also had more replay value, but I accept that as different design ideas: sandbox vs narrative.

Where can I find the narrative in Wartales? There is none. It is a sandbox (which is not a bad thing!), your decisions have no impact on and in the world (which is a pity).

[Wandering Flare]

Originally posted by Tlewnipla:

Originally posted by Vektor T:

I agree. Recruits of each class are only different from each other on their minor traits (if any). In Battle Brothers basically no soldier was the same. Plus, yeah, BB also had more replay value, but I accept that as different design ideas: sandbox vs narrative.

Where can I find the narrative in Wartales? There is none. It is a sandbox (which is not a bad thing!), your decisions have no impact on and in the world (which is a pity).

Every region has its own story, some are related to others, there's also the underlying background of the world.

Also, the last part is wrong. While not in every region, your actions do decide the outcome when there are two sides you can choose between supporting. For example, you can decide between the locals successfully fighting back the murdering and stealing "refugees", or you can help the latter take out the locals and claim the region for themselves.

[Vektor T]

Originally posted by Wandering Flare:

Originally posted by Tlewnipla:

Where can I find the narrative in Wartales? There is none. It is a sandbox (which is not a bad thing!), your decisions have no impact on and in the world (which is a pity).

Every region has its own story, some are related to others, there's also the underlying background of the world.

Also, the last part is wrong. While not in every region, your actions do decide the outcome when there are two sides you can choose between supporting. For example, you can decide between the locals successfully fighting back the murdering and stealing "refugees", or you can help the latter take out the locals and claim the region for themselves.

Well, yeah, you can choose wich side to take, but in the end when you finish the quests it doesn't matter does it? The map/world still reacts the same, at least in Tiltren. I helped the refugees in the woodcamp, but ended butchering them all in the Haven. Still refugees caravans keeps arriven in Titltren and even going to the Haven, the guys in the woodcamp are still there like nothing happens.

I mean, it's more story than BB, but it doesn't seen like my choices matters much appart from quest reward.

[Vektor T]

Also another thing I miss from BB: the AI was so much better.

Easy example: in BB humans wont run into a spear wall 90% of the time, it works more like area denial. "Dumb" creatures like animals, zombies and orcs on the other hand charge head on.

AI also don't backstab, support or surround (thank god for the backstab because one of the only ways Wartales can make tougher battles is with cheesy damage heavy enemies).

[Wandering Flare]

Originally posted by Vektor T:

Also another thing I miss from BB: the AI was so much better.

Easy example: in BB humans wont run into a spear wall 90% of the time, it works more like area denial. "Dumb" creatures like animals, zombies and orcs on the other hand charge head on.

AI also don't backstab, support or surround (thank god for the backstab because one of the only ways Wartales can make tougher battles is with cheesy damage heavy enemies).

♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ GOBLINS!

Phew. Yea, the AI is so much more varied and smarter there, in Wartales ghost bears, blind lurkers and every human in existence share the same (suicidal) braincell.

[Vektor T]

Originally posted by Wandering Flare:

Originally posted by Vektor T:

Also another thing I miss from BB: the AI was so much better.

Easy example: in BB humans wont run into a spear wall 90% of the time, it works more like area denial. "Dumb" creatures like animals, zombies and orcs on the other hand charge head on.

AI also don't backstab, support or surround (thank god for the backstab because one of the only ways Wartales can make tougher battles is with cheesy damage heavy enemies).

♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ GOBLINS!

Phew. Yea, the AI is so much more varied and smarter there, in Wartales ghost bears, blind lurkers and every human in existence share the same (suicidal) braincell.

Came back to say basically it.

After playing Wartales for more time and having a wider experience, I'm starting to reconsider my statement that I thought it's a overall better game than BB.

When you advance a couple more and knows what you are doing, >especially< when you know which knowledges to take from the beginning (Career Plans and Fast Training), the game challenge simply collapses and with it battles becomes very repetitive and boring, always following the same pattern. My enjoyement started to fade away by the end of the second region in when I restarted to capitalize on the lessons learned from my first playthrough, at around level 6. It's quite early when you have, like, 7~8 regions with the DLCs. I'm already stomping even enemies 3 levels higher than my team average, what will happen when I level up more and my builds becomes even better? It seens to get worse at each level despite enemies getting higher levels too. It feels like the game even on it highest difficulty wasn't balanced around the player making full use of it's available capabilities, the two mentioned knowledges feels more like cheating.

On the other hand, I feel Battle Brothers had a way longer game cycle before you starts to feel overpowered and way better challenges in the mid and late game. In BB losing troops are very possible through the game but in Wartales it doesn't feel like a risk anymore unless I play very sloppy. It was more rewarding in BB to have a companion that starts to feel very powerful because it doesn't feel like you where breaking the game, but actually having a good team more capable of taking challenges with >fewer< risk instead of no risk at all. Yeah, eventually it will become overpowered too, it happens in any game, but not as soon as Wartales when I'm barely at 1/3 of the game content.

[ambi]

besides BB, i also recommend battletech. it's a sci-fi merc management game, but with mechs. the AI and tactical decisions are much more indepth. you also have to account for things like height, weather conditions, bodypart damage etc. there's also a story mode as well as a sandbox mode.

[Gorgeous_Joe]

Wartales is way easier to min/max everything and trivialise the combat, I'm sure we've all been at level 15 with a couple of maxed out archers wiping out nearly the entire enemy on turn one.

That is something that just never happens in BB, it's a grind-fest of near death or death experiences all the way until you retire. Even a maxed out fully equipped squad going up against an orc horde will still find itself in a fight with the possibility of losing a brother or two if RNG goes against you.

BB also has fatigue, such a game changer, even the most maxed out stat OP brother with the best equipment in the game can be brought down by a zombie horde because of fatigue and that's the way it should be. Granted that would be rare if you know what you are doing but it's still a possibility.

BB also doesn't have ranged AOE in the way Wartales does and as i mentioned at the start, in Wartales it eventually trivialises the game once you create certain character builds.

Morale is much more important in BB, send a bunch of recruits against an Orc warband or Northmen and they will literally pee themselves and run away at the sight of them.

BB has Orcs&Goblins who can and do kick your ass. Wartales has giant rats&anaemic men things that annoy you in tombs.

Wartales is a great game BUT once you learn how to exploit certain abilities and min/max then all combat becomes trivial.

BB never feels like that, even with veterans and the best equipment you know certain encounters can still lead to brothers dying or you even losing because of morale, fatigue or RNG or all of them combined.

For example if you build the tankiest, hard hitting bro in BB and neglect his courage stats and you go up against the undead he will just run away at the first shriek he hears, or take a slow moving bunch of bro's with no shields up against a mobile Goblin force that peppers you to death with arrows and poison, you really do have to tailor your team to what you are fighting against in BB.

The three game changing things BB did better than Wartales are
1# Fatigue
2# Morale
3# AOE Damage

[Wandering Flare]

Originally posted by Gorgeous_Joe:

That is something that just never happens in BB, it's a grind-fest of near death or death experiences all the way until you retire. Even a maxed out fully equipped squad going up against an orc horde will still find itself in a fight with the possibility of losing a brother or two if RNG goes against you.

Takes me back to my company failing to disarm a Berserker with a flail 3 times in a row so it just walked up to a bro and instakilled them at full named armor and HP. The headshot modifier is brutal.