Duellist (the Swordsman class) should be reworked?

[funkmonster7]

I really fail to see its appeal. If your Duellist has Riposte already, then he will deal 50% more damage with the upgraded class skill.

The thing is, there is a similar class already, only it is built better for this sort of playstyle. It is the Riposte Fighter.

Riposte Fighter uses heavy armor, so he can take a hit. And his class skill destabilizes, which makes him an awesome tank killer.

There are only two ways I can think of to make a Duellist be able to gain Riposte before his enemy does to make use of that +50% damage:
1. Have a Warrior heavy tank buff him when he is already engaged (but after he has taken a hit from his engaged enemy so it doesn't get cancelled out by the enemy's attack).
2. He learns Counter-attack passive at level 6.

I personally would stick with option 2 because I don't like using a Warrior heavy tank to spend 2 VP just to buff everyone in the party. 2 VP is very costly, I don't see the appeal of it.

Problem here is, a Riposte Duellist uses medium armor. Without a Spectral shield (forgot its name), he has around 20% guard. With a Spectral shield, he has 40% guard, but loses the option of an offhand weapon. Which, isn't that big of a deal... until you consider the difference between such a roundabout strategy and the Riposte Fighter which absolutely kicks ass right from the beginning.

I mean, I can think of a few ways to make a Riposte Duellist work. But what use is Riposte if you rely on it for +50% damage, yet losing the buff means you don't have that +50% damage on one skill? And plus, why would I bother with keeping Riposte just for that +50% damage if the attack of opportunity hits for 100% str damage anyway? Which means, the Duellist sounds like a cross between offensive playstyle and defensive playstyle, but does neither well.

The way I see it, Duellist's class skill is so gimped that it either needs a specific strategy or equipment setup (the belt accessory that cuts down attacks of opportunity damage taken by 50%) to make it work, or you can skip it and go for Fighter, or even Protector. I mean, Protector is probably the least used Swordsman class now (aside from Duellist) but it still has a niche as the best of all 1-vs-1 tanks. Duellist has a niche, and that is being a Riposte wannabe.

[drake_hound]

Duelist is more then fine , even without special equipment...
The riposte attack is more then fine , cause it is 100%-120% str .. even without the bonus from improved version.
The improved version is if you use level 10 disengage , and get lucky , then you can riposte for a lot of EXTRA damage..

Warrior with Plate and 2 cost Ovation (the standard version is pointless) if you take ovation you take it for the MOVEMENT buff so the improved version.
And Ovation is when you don't put any Movement points into your toon.
But Ovation is a necessity for BIG party .. to speed up combat.

So what if your armor is broken after riposting, my Twohander Duelist wipes the floor with 3-5 enemies with the Arena twohander sword.. first AOE for 3-4 enemies if any cannot get knocked back instant kill.. then go taunt somebody , disengage .. riposte and dead or disenage and dead.

[darenhughes58]

What the duelist needs is to be able to counter attack anyone that attack them and have a chance when attacked to deflect the attack so they take half to no damage from the attack. Thus they wouldnt need heavy armour because with or without armour they are taking reduced damage. Though wouldnt be able to work on ranged attack. Sure they could deflect spear but not arrows. But wouldnt be able to counter attack them if outside sword range.

[drake_hound]

Originally posted by darenhughes58:

What the duelist needs is to be able to counter attack anyone that attack them and have a chance when attacked to deflect the attack so they take half to no damage from the attack. Thus they wouldnt need heavy armour because with or without armour they are taking reduced damage. Though wouldnt be able to work on ranged attack. Sure they could deflect spear but not arrows. But wouldnt be able to counter attack them if outside sword range.

Eh NO , sorry eh NO , that really is OP who prevents people from running a FULL TEAM of Duelist who can insta Kill anybody who approaches or they take no damage.
Infact I don't know what the obessions with people are about taking no/little damage.
if you want that build a Swords Man with bullwark .. but my Riposte.. yeah that is the tradeoff. bullwark upgraded give Fury on control.

[drake_hound]

the only problem is the name Duelist , it suggest that you must be using one handed weapon... but infact it Stinks with onehanded weapon.. so Twohander it is , and it rocks with a twohander .

[funkmonster7]

Well, my point is relying on Riposte which gets removed from being attacked, makes you very defensive, which isn't really how a medium-armor character should play as. (Actually I didn't say this earlier, I forgot about it as I usually initiate the engagement, not wait to get engaged, even with my tanks.)

@drake_hound: you're correct, but a Swordsmaster with Lacerate can do just as well, if not better... attack with a torch for 1 VP, Lacerate pays for its own VP cost if you're hitting more than 1 target (and learned the correct passive for the VP gain), and then go in for the last hit.

I'm not taking Legendary weapons into account, because some Legendary weapons outright beat the point of almost any build. Like the Legendary 2h sword... 1st AOE is instant kill for anyone who can't be knocked back, maybe aside from enemy tanks with 44% guard.

But otherwise, Duellist feels a bit too shoehorned into a specific niche that is dominated by another subclass. I would prefer Duellist's class skill to be using something else for special effect. I dunno...

I also think the devs probably initially thought of Duellists as one-handed swordsmen, because the Duellist trait is specifically for 1h characters only. So I think using 2h weapons for a Duellist, while it isn't "wrong" (you can duel with any weapon you want, even your fists, if we're talking about practicality), just feels like this is either an oversight from the devs about how all this works in the game.

I mean, if the class skill lets the Duellist cause Low Blow effect (50% chance to miss on the next attack) to the enemy, that at least lets me spec Duellist into Bulwark or something.

And also, while we're at it, Duellist can also spec into Bulwark anyway and get +50% damage on the next attack. If so, then what is the point in upgrading the class skill? Since that +50% damage is almost never going to happen unless the Duellist was engaged by the enemy, not when he's engaging, and then attack first on the next round.

Duellist can lose the armor for sure, but why do that when Swordsmaster can do tremendous damage even without engaging in the first place?

[drake_hound]

Well the swordsmaster was suppose to be the TWOHANDER .. but it performs better with one hander and torch >.< cause of AOE valour regain (it neatly regains 2 valour points for your sword master attack and at the end nets you 1 valour regain)

So now comes the Duelist who suppose to be the onehander .. and it stinks , suddenly we get a twohander master LOL .

the 50% fury and the 50% riposte bonus damage stacks.. for a total of 100% bonus damage, if you gotten a savage from Lurden reinforcement with skill tree, you will build a AOE dagger build around it , cause that 100% damage buff rocks for killing multiple oppenents.

The level 10, 50% chance to disengage and take no damage and do a attack of oppertunity instead.. is the reason for that Duelist buff .. (it is meh the duelist buff I agree with you but when using it as twohander it rocks)

[drake_hound]

if you really do not want to take damage when using disenegage and engage .. use the tiny lucky charm and taunt .. I never understood why they even put in the tiny lucky charm and made it stack with taunt...

It seems people are just too lazy to taunt enemies it seems. here I was hoping for disarm to engage enemy (but instead it doesn't) to get more engage options (for regaining valour and riposte attacks)

[funkmonster7]

Is the tin lucky charm craftable or unique? I found one in a previous playthrough, might have it now too but forgot who's equipping it, or I stashed it away.

The Duellist with upgraded Bulwark will get Fury upon disengaging. And upon disengaging, he will activate Riposte, because he gets hit and if he has Riposte, he will hit back, thus losing Riposte... He can't stack Fury with the 50% bonus damage from Riposte.

I don't have the Ludern savage with skill tree so I don't know what he does. But again, that just feels too much of a hassle to get, just to make Duellist competitive against the other Swordsman classes.

For example, Assassin is a step up from Cutthroat. Assassin is probably overtuned at this point, or Cutthroat can use a buff because Cutthroat kind of sucks right now, or at least the upgrade for the class skill is anyway.

Barbarian is also a step up from Berserker, although they have their niches. I still like Berserker's ignore Guard upgrade.

Duellist is ... meh. Perhaps with a 2h sword but I usually like 2h Swordsmaster with the Knightly Sword. It slows enemies down around him, and lets him kite around. I usually put a lot of movement points in him and let him run around causing havoc. Although these days I use a 2h mace dude for the job, because with the Armor Breaker buff he can have unlimited Inspiration.

Or is 1h Duellist good for using a Falchion?

[drake_hound]

There are roughly if you done all the bandit camps and quest 3-4 Tiny Lucky charm infact more probaly cause it is a random belt trinket drop (infact I didn't pick it at the gosenberg beach, cause I wanted the tracker Prisoner for my team)

Yes that is why the LEVEL 10 Defensive Riposte comes into play .. so you have 50% chance to not lose Riposte or Fury .. cause the attack of oppertunity from that one is seperate attack of oppertunity.

Knightly sword I hardly use it , if you really want something like that build a Brute with Vanguard , the damage is higher from Vanguard then the knightly sword cause you can equip Brute legendary weapons even the one hander does 70 damage versus a knightly sword 11 (2 star) 62.
But again I understand your concern you are loving the riposte build with knightly sword.

But once you tried a Duelist with Prosperity :P you never want to go back ... try it :P
It almost always a oneshot if you position it right to prevent enemies from being knocked back, it can aoe for 4 enemies ..

[drake_hound]

No duelist with a Falchion .. is the worst combo ever :( any riposte build with Falchion is terrible ... why cause if you move you lose Riposte :( ...

Riposte doesn't stay on the character if you move . Falchion high damage and knockback .
Is done so you can use them with Barrage and Spearwall.. infact the Falchion is one of the prefered weapons of your cheap Prisoner wannabee swordsman (black caravan recruits) :P
Cause it makes a something of a strategic tool. that can be positioned around.
Free engaged people, but nowadays you got more tools with level 10 skill to free engage people.

[funkmonster7]

Originally posted by drake_hound:

But again I understand your concern you are loving the riposte build with knightly sword.

No, you misunderstood. My Riposte build is Fighter, he is a 1h sword/shield tank with 67% guard.

The Knightly Sword guy is the Swordmaster. He basically multi-attacks an enemy with the Knightly Sword, Lacerate, then runs away. Rinse and repeat. The 2h mace Vanguard can do better because usually he breaks the enemy's armor and gains Brutality and Inspiration right away. This is why I no longer use Swordmaster.

I was hoping to try out a Swordmaster that uses 1h weapon, preferably the Ulfberht of the Eye sword, but turns out it is extremely rare. I hardly see it being sold by merchants, only ever bought 1 so far. So I guess my next attempt to get him to use Falchion... Of course, offhand weapon would be a torch.

I try to limit myself to not using Legendary weapons because I want a build that is guaranteed to work for all my Swordsmen.

[drake_hound]

Under stood then the next thing to prosperity is twohander Falchion from the brotherhood.
For the duelist spec, it works miracles with that one too..

Swordmaster was made to use twohander , so you gain AOE attack gain 1 valour , and then Swordmaster attack for 2 valour and regain 1 , so your attacks in the end was 0 Valour. still dips down 1 fixed valour to regain 1 temp valour. (edit well that was the original plan from the DEV )

Ulfberht is always gained from Killing off the Black Caravans with Commander Holst .. in Arthas. (so in the end the body of the inquistor before the 3 chest , drops 1 Ulfberht of the Eye sword always)

The sword itself is a random drop from sadly only 3 encounters in Arthas... that doesn't garantee its drop :( same way that nifty gold inquistor plate armor is hardly ever dropping but can be bought from the merchant (but that armor is SUPER RARE ... )

The Merchant carries enough of those ulfberht .. I never had a play trough where I didn't buy one from the merchant .. so while it is rare, it isn't that rare that it doesn't show up.

[darenhughes58]

Originally posted by drake_hound:

Originally posted by darenhughes58:

What the duelist needs is to be able to counter attack anyone that attack them and have a chance when attacked to deflect the attack so they take half to no damage from the attack. Thus they wouldnt need heavy armour because with or without armour they are taking reduced damage. Though wouldnt be able to work on ranged attack. Sure they could deflect spear but not arrows. But wouldnt be able to counter attack them if outside sword range.

Eh NO , sorry eh NO , that really is OP who prevents people from running a FULL TEAM of Duelist who can insta Kill anybody who approaches or they take no damage.
Infact I don't know what the obessions with people are about taking no/little damage.
if you want that build a Swords Man with bullwark .. but my Riposte.. yeah that is the tradeoff. bullwark upgraded give Fury on control.

Actually what I was thinking of is the name duelist, Being one who duels, Being a swordsman then that would involve parrying attacks and riposting. So it makes sense that when engaged instead of taking damage they have the chance of blocking and counter attacking when attacked at close range. Wouldnt make them OP there would be ways around it. But I would have it set up that if attacked they engage with that target. If engaged they would disengage current target and engage with new target. Be very handy for generating valour points. They would be perfect for mass fights to run them in and have them reduce attacking force. Perhaps reduced change of doing this is engaged and attacked from behind. It only attacked from front or sides then all good.

[Dies Fourth]

Ive been soaking up all this info poorly lol

My 1st question is are you talking about capturing a certain class from a certain area or recruiting them in a tavern ?

Ive never gotten a captured human to stay upon release.

[funkmonster7]

Originally posted by Dies Fourth:

Ive been soaking up all this info poorly lol

My 1st question is are you talking about capturing a certain class from a certain area or recruiting them in a tavern ?

Ive never gotten a captured human to stay upon release.

No. We're talking about the new Swordsman class that can be unlocked after completing a certain Arena questline in Gosenberg. The class is called Duellist, and it has a class skill called Last Hit or something.

We were just engaging in a healthy discussion on whether the class should be tweaked, because I personally felt that it was meh, at least when compared to the Assassin and the Barbarian, both which are also unlockable classes by completing their relevant Arena questlines.

My specific argument was more about "niche". Like, Cutthroat and Assassin. Cutthroat has more of a flanker niche, whereas Assassin is more about dabbling in ranged combat. But in the end, both sides can dabble into each other's niches as well; for example, my Assassins both dabble in attacking from behind. They seldom use that perk (+35% damage when attacking from behind), simply because most enemies die or are near dead by the time my tanks are done with their turns, and staying engaged with the enemies. But there aren't that many good perks left to take, so I take those ones just in case I need them. (I can also opt for Low Blow, but I rarely let my enemies take their turn so Low Blow isn't worth its 1 VP cost.)

My issue with Duellist is its class skill upgrade relies on Riposte a little too much, that it almost requires a specific build with equipment etc to make it work. Drake_hound suggested I use a 2h sword, which I think is a fair strategy, as I've been considering 1h swords all this time. Then again, he also uses a legendary 2h sword, which is obscenely powerful if you use it right; this is something I try not to use because using a powerful legendary weapon to justify a class's design makes it look even less worthwhile.

Riposte is easily lost, either from being hit by the enemy, or by moving. So, a Duellist whose class skill relies on having Riposte to do extra damage requires him to engage an enemy that has already moved, and then attack the enemy again on the next turn before the enemy gets his turn. The other way of making this work is get the perk Counter-attack, which gives the Duellist Riposte upon engaging. However, I was worried the Duellist might take too much damage due to his medium armor; and there is another Swordsman class (Fighter) that can do this far better due to his class skill having Destabilisation. Hence, a Duellist that relies on Riposte feels like a Fighter wannabe...

Anyway, for you though. If you want to capture a prisoner and recruit him, put him at the campfire and surround him with your mercs. You'll need at least 5 mercs for this. Cure his injury, and make sure his escape chance is 0% (even better, make sure it is -10% if you're paranoid), brush his teeth with the toothpaste item (silly I know, but it works), and after 5 rests or so, he will initiate a dialogue and you need about 200 influence to recruit him. (Possibly more if you have a lot of mercs in your party, dunno I've only ever recruited 1 guy before and it cost me 200 influence.)