So...thieving scumbaggery: is it necessary?

[Gregorovitch]

As a huge Battle Brothers fan I have been considering playing Wartales and I have to say judging by for examples Asher Games current LP, which I rate as very good, the game seems to be shaping up nicely and hitting a lot of the right spots.

However being a bit of limp goody-two-shoes my nature I am a bit put off by having to engage in wholesale thieving from innocent ordinary folk especially as the suspicion system seems to push you in the direction of nicking loaves of bread from starving peasants rather than valuable equipment and trinkets from rich bastard merchants and tyrannical nobles, at least early game.

So just how important is this theiving scumbaggery to your progress in the game?

[Agent_b187]

1. Your impression is wrong. You can steal from ordinary people, you don´t have to. You can level up your thief with lockpicking the various chests you find in the different areas.

2. The suspicion system does not push you into doing anything. The suspicion is linked to the worth of the object, not who you steal it from. Meaning that stealing an expensive item will be more likely to alert the guard than a cheap one.

3. There are a few achievements linked to stealing, but there is plenty of other things to do and avenues to go down, which gives you the freedom to completely ignore theiving if you choose to do so.

Otherwise, just play the game yourself and find out.

[the evil one]

Yep you can ignore thievery if you want other than a few quests reqs
And concentrate on your main aim of murdering people for gold, if that's more to your taste

[Robin of Spiritwood]

Originally posted by Gregorovitch:

So just how important is this theiving scumbaggery to your progress in the game?

The game divides this aspect into 2 components.

Lockpicking
Applied to containers.
Necessary to advance plots, and for getting certain items. No suspicion usually produced, except in one quest.

Stealing
Applied to any NPC.
Completely optional. Tied to Suspicion system.

You need a competent lockpicker. You do not need a Thief as such.
Stolen goods require proper disposal through a fence or consumption.

[Wizard of Woz]

It isn't important. I find it interesting you are fine with murdering people but not stealing from them. Do you not allow yourself to pick up loot off the people you just killed?

[Wizard of Woz]

It isn't important. I find it interesting you are fine with murdering people but not stealing from them. Do you not allow yourself to pick up loot off the people you just killed?

[Kruppe]

all of this is true to a point - mustn't forget the Septella quest. should be noted you'll get more experience points (too) by completing 'dastardly deeds' - if you don't want to kill guards you should ignore the Septella quest - and, likewise, you may miss out on getting some worthy weapons and armour later too...

[BedlamBetty]

The op only showed disdain for stealing from the innocent. Don't know how he'd feel about killing guards or even merchants.
It seems to me like an easy thing to convince oneself that they're all corrupt anyway and that only our teams are ever working toward the betterment of the "people" at large.

[the evil one]

Originally posted by BedlamBetty:

The op only showed disdain for stealing from the innocent. Don't know how he'd feel about killing guards or even merchants.
It seems to me like an easy thing to convince oneself that they're all corrupt anyway and that only our teams are ever working toward the betterment of the "people" at large.

Yep so ofc he won't steal the ornate key or pilfer any of the homestead chests :)
Or murder and loot either the innocent townsfolk or the innocent refugees in the tiltren quest line
You would have to have some very warped morals to think your merc band in this game is doing anything for the good of anyone else but themselves

We loot and murder for a living, it's not even for a living after a while, it's just for the fun of it

[BedlamBetty]

Originally posted by the evil one:

Originally posted by BedlamBetty:

The op only showed disdain for stealing from the innocent. Don't know how he'd feel about killing guards or even merchants.
It seems to me like an easy thing to convince oneself that they're all corrupt anyway and that only our teams are ever working toward the betterment of the "people" at large.

Yep so ofc he won't steal the ornate key or pilfer any of the homestead chests :)
Or murder and loot either the innocent townsfolk or the innocent refugees in the tiltren quest line
You would have to have some very warped morals to think your merc band in this game is doing anything for the good of anyone else but themselves

We loot and murder for a living, it's not even for a living after a while, it's just for the fun of it

Lol. And yet everyone seems to flourish. They get bigger and more powerful as we do.
Based on the evidence, all those murders and thefts we accomplish just provide everyone else with the opportunity to be better and more numerous.
It's fantasy after all, perhaps reproduction in this world is accomplished through killing people.

[Gregorovitch]

Originally posted by wizard_of_woz:

It isn't important. I find it interesting you are fine with murdering people but not stealing from them. Do you not allow yourself to pick up loot off the people you just killed?

A blatant straw man argument. Where did I ever suggest I was fine with murdering anybody? Oh, that's right, I didn't.

That's 'cos in Battle Brothers for example I never murdered anybody. I didn't have to. I only ever did one of four things involving killing:

1. Fulfilled legitimate (i.e. lawful in game world) contracts (re: bandits etc)
2. Hunted creatures
3. Defended myself if attacked
4. Took sides in wars etc when necessary, desirable or justified (in my party's view).

In other words I play as roughly Lawful Neutral in D&D terms. I do not do private assassination contracts for example or prey on caravans for profit. Stealing bread from starving peasants or local market traders is Chaotic Evil and I personally don't like playing chaotic evil, hence my OP question, I don't want to be effectively forced to play that way by the game punishing my progress for not stealing bread from starving peasants etc.

Incidentally I have no objection at all to the game fully supporting a chaotic evil play style with full on criminal systems. My objection is purely that such a play style is baked into the optimum development path, if that is actually the case (which is the point of my OP).

Originally posted by BedlamBetty:

The op only showed disdain for stealing from the innocent. Don't know how he'd feel about killing guards or even merchants.
It seems to me like an easy thing to convince oneself that they're all corrupt anyway and that only our teams are ever working toward the betterment of the "people" at large.

Indeed. Except generally speaking the better RPGs tend to do a pretty good job of convincing anybody they're all corrupt self-serving toerags anyway. Grey moral areas are meat and drink to any game's narrative arc

Originally posted by Robin of Spiritwood:

Lockpicking
Applied to containers.
Necessary to advance plots, and for getting certain items. No suspicion usually produced, except in one quest.

Stealing
Applied to any NPC.
Completely optional. Tied to Suspicion system.

You need a competent lockpicker. You do not need a Thief as such.
Stolen goods require proper disposal through a fence or consumption.

That's fair enough, if so I am reassured.

[CCK]

Keep on stealing bcos i want that Itchy Hand achievement.

[Wizard of Woz]

Originally posted by Gregorovitch:

Originally posted by wizard_of_woz:

It isn't important. I find it interesting you are fine with murdering people but not stealing from them. Do you not allow yourself to pick up loot off the people you just killed?

A blatant straw man argument. Where did I ever suggest I was fine with murdering anybody? Oh, that's right, I didn't.

That's 'cos in Battle Brothers for example I never murdered anybody. I didn't have to. I only ever did one of four things involving killing:

1. Fulfilled legitimate (i.e. lawful in game world) contracts (re: bandits etc)
2. Hunted creatures
3. Defended myself if attacked
4. Took sides in wars etc when necessary, desirable or justified (in my party's view).

In other words I play as roughly Lawful Neutral in D&D terms. I do not do private assassination contracts for example or prey on caravans for profit. Stealing bread from starving peasants or local market traders is Chaotic Evil and I personally don't like playing chaotic evil, hence my OP question, I don't want to be effectively forced to play that way by the game punishing my progress for not stealing bread from starving peasants etc.

Incidentally I have no objection at all to the game fully supporting a chaotic evil play style with full on criminal systems. My objection is purely that such a play style is baked into the optimum development path, if that is actually the case (which is the point of my OP).

Originally posted by BedlamBetty:

The op only showed disdain for stealing from the innocent. Don't know how he'd feel about killing guards or even merchants.
It seems to me like an easy thing to convince oneself that they're all corrupt anyway and that only our teams are ever working toward the betterment of the "people" at large.

Indeed. Except generally speaking the better RPGs tend to do a pretty good job of convincing anybody they're all corrupt self-serving toerags anyway. Grey moral areas are meat and drink to any game's narrative arc

Originally posted by Robin of Spiritwood:

Lockpicking
Applied to containers.
Necessary to advance plots, and for getting certain items. No suspicion usually produced, except in one quest.

Stealing
Applied to any NPC.
Completely optional. Tied to Suspicion system.

You need a competent lockpicker. You do not need a Thief as such.
Stolen goods require proper disposal through a fence or consumption.

That's fair enough, if so I am reassured.

Well good luck keeping your morals up in this game. BTW doesn't matter if it feels right to you, murder is murder.

[Gregorovitch]

Well, having played a few hours now I can give a considered verdict on the question of whether thieving scumbaggery is required to progress in the game (note: lockpicking boxes etc is not considered thieving):

The answer is no, it isn't, and furthermore it is not even optimal, it does not appear to provide any real advantage and may in fact be a hindrance to your progress.

I know this because having watched a couple of LPs before pulling the trigger on this game it is obvious to me I am making as much if not more money than streamers indulging in even just the odd dip here and there.

How can this be so, you may ask.

I think the answer is that the design of the game is all about efficient time management: chop-chop-busy-busy-work-work-bang-bang is the path to riches. Every game hour costs you a lot in food and wages. Tick tock. It follows that the shorter the time it takes you from picking up contracts, completing them and returning to claim your fees and pick up the next batch the further ahead you will be.

If you are having to evade the local constabulary on your travels you will necessarily lose time therefore your food and wage bill goes up relative to your overall earnings. The wages of sin, one might say. The exact amount you will lose no doubt depends on how determined the local constabulary are to feel your collar.

[Hans]

Originally posted by wizard_of_woz:

Well good luck keeping your morals up in this game. BTW doesn't matter if it feels right to you, murder is murder.

Uhhh... no it's not.

Originally posted by Gregorovitch:

If you are having to evade the local constabulary on your travels you will necessarily lose time therefore your food and wage bill goes up relative to your overall earnings. The wages of sin, one might say. The exact amount you will lose no doubt depends on how determined the local constabulary are to feel your collar.

This has been my experience as well, it's just not worth it having to constantly evade the guards. Eventually though, as with all RPGs, you'll have so much gold once you're out of the early game it won't matter and you can do whatever you want.

[Nelsons other eye]

Getting the guard off your back is a few seconds work, hand a few prisoners in which you'd do anyway to make some extra gold and that's it
If you're not fighting the guard all the time you're missing out on a lot of the best armour and weapons drops
You're a evil merc band not the boy scouts

Originally posted by Gregorovitch:

Well, having played a few hours now I can give a considered verdict on the question of whether thieving scumbaggery is required to progress in the game (note: lockpicking boxes etc is not considered thieving):

The answer is no, it isn't, and furthermore it is not even optimal, it does not appear to provide any real advantage and may in fact be a hindrance to your progress.

?? It hinders your progress rofl, idk how many complete runs you've done but that's bs
Making a fast 50 or 60k from stealing/blackmarket etc is not going to hinder you

That cash buys the skill books and ability books for your whole squad in one go, let alone the extra stuff you can buy with it