Anonymous Turn Order Mode - A game changer?

[Gregorovitch]

ColorsFadeGaming has released a video showcasing the difference this turn order makes. Anonymous Turn Order is where you know when an enemy is going to go but you don't know which one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cliMuyS5ZE4&lc=UgxYb2FgQWj-6-CNYNZ4AaABAg.9p3VUAnUUO19p3dJmB3xEf

ColorsFade is switching over to the this mode in his current LP at Ep: 13. This hasn't been released yet. Maybe a week or so.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL4hv-Mbo-IfXS-3AlQ2BRLmsY3dDNz7cp

ColorsFade commented on why he made the switch:

"The big reason I made the switch was because, after playing with it for a couple battles, it was clear that many more talents/abilities came into play during a battle, both for my own team and for the enemies. When the enemies aren't anonymous, certain abilities simply don't get used because they're not effective or necessary. But when you don't know which enemy is going to act next, suddenly every tool in your toolbelt has a use, and the utility of your builds shines brighter. It's by far a more fun way to play the game, I think. Now that I've had a chance to do it."

As for myself I'm trying to summon up the courage to make the switch - clearly it does make the game more difficult. But it also makes the game much more interesting and varied and it seems clear that this is the way it's meant to be played.

BTW ColorsFade's channel is criminally overlooked IMHO, I found him because of his excellent coverage of Star Traders Frontiers (another wicked game) but he actually has a pretty wide and eclectic taste in games and generally speaking that taste is excellent. He's just done his top 20 favourite games of all time vid and really every single entry is a winner. If you're ever stuck for something to play, give it a watch.

[Gregorovitch]

Update:

So I switched over to Anonymous Turn Order and have done about four battles with it so far. None have them have been difficult, I'm just cleaning up stuff in Arthes @ level 6/7 so I'll have to see what happens moving to a new area.

Nevertheless I can see immediately that:

a) AoE abilities come into the equation far more because enemies tend to group up more since more of them get to move before they are killed.

b) ALL abilities are much more important like ColorFade says. For example Infantryman Barrage suddenly becomes a staple instead of a useful situational thing.

c) You positioning for, approach to and attack order for a battle becomes determined by character/weapon abilities, combo opportunities and support functions rather than simply a single target action order to cut enemies down before they can move as you do when playing in visible turn order mode.

Overall I've found it much more satisfying and interesting to play already and not particularly more difficult, however as I say I haven't experienced a tough battle under Anonymous Turn Order yet so I'll have to wait and see on that.

Certainly I think Anonymous Turn Order should be the default setting for the game. It enriches the experience and is flat out more interesting and fun both from a tactical point of view and from a party composition and build point of view. It's clear to me players should be encouraged to learn to play this way from the get go since the overall experience is so much better.

[dr46onfusion]

A better idea is having turn order based on a stat that can be determined by what builds you do, like calculating your total stats and divide by your movement stats?

Enemy turns are somewhat random, and player turns is 'meh' because 'why not'?

It might be better to do Player Team -> Enemy Team -> Allied Team emphasis on turn orders but it'd let you obliterate them before their turn is over, because balance is all over the place. Such a method only works if enemies are on the far side of the map and its a fog of war, and your team are on your own side. Like say Fire Emblem where all player units spawn in a specific zone and the enemy units are scattered all over a map, if there is objective that is...

And that leads to another problem with WarTales... Their maps are just battlefields, nothing important to gleam from them other than murdering the enemy and reaping the loot automatically.

It's not like if you invade enemy camps you could find treasure chests and items loitering all over the battlefield, no you visit a 'empty' ruins or camp after you destroy them and pick apart whatever is there, and never come back to that area.

[Gregorovitch]

Originally posted by Kai:

A better idea is having turn order based on a stat that can be determined by what builds you do, like calculating your total stats and divide by your movement stats?

The issue with that is it's too easily exploitable. Classic example was Wasteland 2 where the derived stat Combat Initiative was the "God stat" that simply broke the game the way it was implemented.

The beauty of Anonymous Turn Order in this game is it's impossible for the player to get round or find any way to exploit it.

[Olleus]

Glad to see that you've tried it, after talking about it for so long. How does it differ from playing on maps with lots of fog?

Originally posted by Gregorovitch:

Update:
Nevertheless I can see immediately that:

a) AoE abilities come into the equation far more because enemies tend to group up more since more of them get to move before they are killed.

b) ALL abilities are much more important like ColorFade says. For example Infantryman Barrage suddenly becomes a staple instead of a useful situational thing.

c) You positioning for, approach to and attack order for a battle becomes determined by character/weapon abilities, combo opportunities and support functions rather than simply a single target action order to cut enemies down before they can move as you do when playing in visible turn order mode.

AoE weapons are crucially important in normal mode too though! And so is infantrymen! To take just one example, It's a great way of inflicting damage on the enemy while simultaneously regrouping your forces from their initial scattered deployment. Which is how almost all battles start.

Does it make the AI seem more intelligent? Or do they still just run head first into the nearest spiky object they can find lol?

What about movement? Is moving quickly more or less important? If you don't know who's attacking next, I imagine that quick hit-and-run is an even more important form of defence (because you can run away from everyone simultaneously, but you can't kill everyone before they move simultaneously).

[Stardustfire]

a big lol for point B above. "situational before" , yeah sure, if you are a noob at positioning....

[Gregorovitch]

Originally posted by Olleus:

How does it differ from playing on maps with lots of fog?

You can still see them and work out were they can move to.

Originally posted by Olleus:

AoE weapons are crucially important in normal mode too though! And so is infantrymen! To take just one example, It's a great way of inflicting damage on the enemy while simultaneously regrouping your forces from their initial scattered deployment. Which is how almost all battles start.

My sense is that these abilities are much more useful to you in normal mode than to most players, including myself. You have explained in past that you use Barrage and Spearwall a lot and that you group up into formations to maximise the effectiveness of it etc but I don't think most players do that, I think they just read the turn order and go straight at 'em one after another (except when heavily outnumbered).

I think the upshot of this is for you would feel very much at home in Anonymous Turn mode, it would just add little bit of spice to it.

Originally posted by Olleus:

Does it make the AI seem more intelligent? Or do they still just run head first into the nearest spiky object they can find lol?

No, I think the AI is identical, but of course it doesn't feel identical since you don't know exactly where to put your spikes so to speak.

Originally posted by Olleus:

What about movement? Is moving quickly more or less important? If you don't know who's attacking next, I imagine that quick hit-and-run is an even more important form of defence (because you can run away from everyone simultaneously, but you can't kill everyone before they move simultaneously).

I haven't played enough under the new mode to comment on that yet really, nor have I had enough tough fights.

Originally posted by Stardustfire:

a big lol for point B above. "situational before" , yeah sure, if you are a noob at positioning....

It may be that positioning is an issue if you are playing level scaled at max difficulty even with visible turn order but in Region Locked mode or on lower difficulties it's only an issue for the hardest battles. As I say I think most players just go straight at 'em - a dead enemy can't hurt you and the quicker you kill 'em the quicker you get Galvanise.

Messing about with positioning , Spearwall and Barrage is very expensive in VP and generally speaking not necessary except in exceptional situations - except when you don't know which one's going next then it suddenly is.

[Slenkhar]

Originally posted by Kai:

A better idea is having turn order based on a stat that can be determined by what builds you do, like calculating your total stats and divide by your movement stats?

Enemy turns are somewhat random, and player turns is 'meh' because 'why not'?

It might be better to do Player Team -> Enemy Team -> Allied Team emphasis on turn orders but it'd let you obliterate them before their turn is over, because balance is all over the place. Such a method only works if enemies are on the far side of the map and its a fog of war, and your team are on your own side. Like say Fire Emblem where all player units spawn in a specific zone and the enemy units are scattered all over a map, if there is objective that is...

And that leads to another problem with WarTales... Their maps are just battlefields, nothing important to gleam from them other than murdering the enemy and reaping the loot automatically.

It's not like if you invade enemy camps you could find treasure chests and items loitering all over the battlefield, no you visit a 'empty' ruins or camp after you destroy them and pick apart whatever is there, and never come back to that area.

Sounds like Divinity 2

[Neyreyan_Youtube]

Originally posted by Gregorovitch:

Originally posted by Kai:

A better idea is having turn order based on a stat that can be determined by what builds you do, like calculating your total stats and divide by your movement stats?

The issue with that is it's too easily exploitable. Classic example was Wasteland 2 where the derived stat Combat Initiative was the "God stat" that simply broke the game the way it was implemented.

The beauty of Anonymous Turn Order in this game is it's impossible for the player to get round or find any way to exploit it.

Meh, speculations, its all comes down to devs making mistakes while creating the game spliting the game's community to the point where they say totally different things.
The "anonymus turn order" sounds like an idea some streamer or youtuber came up with to make the game less linear.
The game should have been made less linear by the devs BY DESIGN, not by making a weird change like this.
That would only make playing on expert very frustrating because of the insane combo skills the AI can get. They are very capable on 2 shoting the light armors or even the medium/heavy armors because they have skills you dont have access to.

It wouldnt change much for my playstyle since i play with 4 mercs and it would be easy to predict what enemy will move.
Wich takes us back to the main problem, the game is linear, playing on easy or medium would make it worse. But its also the fault of the devs for not sticking to only 1 game mode(adaptive/free)

[ColorsFade]

Originally posted by Gregorovitch:

ColorsFadeGaming has released a video....

I appreciate the shout-out.

I've been playing the mode exclusively since you told me about it and I think it's awesome. I'm not going back to the default.

The game should have been made less linear by the devs BY DESIGN, not by making a weird change like this.

It's not a weird change - it's just a simple configuration option. This is what we should be asking more game developers to do, which is give us options so we can play the game in a manner that suits us. You don't like the mode? (even though you haven't played it yet) Then don't play it. Simple as that.

I'm enjoying the heck out of this game. I'm glad it isn't simply a carbon copy of every other turn-based game out there. Different is good. I like the variety.

[Khalunka]

I would totally play without the turn order if we had some initiative system. Otherwise I just refuse to do it... just because I find more fun this way. More stress free too. Maybe that mentality will change in the future.

[Dexter]

It is a nice option to have. Similar to Great Puzzle Solver NPC.

Quickly watched video and noticed second potential problem. Seeing which NPCs already did thier turn is one fix, second would be to disable exclamation mark on initiative order.

When enemy uses targeting ability, exclamation mark stays above them on initative order panel, so you know when they are about to make thier turn.

Feels like it adds so much more to combat. Since there is no initiative stat, and I'm glad there is no such thing here, randomness of enemy turns makes it much harder to deal with enemies.

[Khalunka]

Originally posted by Dexter:

It is a nice option to have. Similar to Great Puzzle Solver NPC.

Quickly watched video and noticed second potential problem. Seeing which NPCs already did thier turn is one fix, second would be to disable exclamation mark on initiative order.

When enemy uses targeting ability, exclamation mark stays above them on initative order panel, so you know when they are about to make thier turn.

Feels like it adds so much more to combat. Since there is no initiative stat, and I'm glad there is no such thing here, randomness of enemy turns makes it much harder to deal with enemies.

Always interesting to see so many different opinions. Kinda shows how hard it is for developers as well. I think I played too much dofus, made me spoiled for initiative system hehehe.

[Dexter]

Originally posted by MaruWeave:

Originally posted by Dexter:

It is a nice option to have. Similar to Great Puzzle Solver NPC.

Quickly watched video and noticed second potential problem. Seeing which NPCs already did thier turn is one fix, second would be to disable exclamation mark on initiative order.

When enemy uses targeting ability, exclamation mark stays above them on initative order panel, so you know when they are about to make thier turn.

Feels like it adds so much more to combat. Since there is no initiative stat, and I'm glad there is no such thing here, randomness of enemy turns makes it much harder to deal with enemies.

Always interesting to see so many different opinions. Kinda shows how hard it is for developers as well. I think I played too much dofus, made me spoiled for initiative system hehehe.

Thing is, initiative order can be easly exploited.

Divinity 2: Original Sin - overbuffed boss goes first, 2 shots 1 or 2 of companions, unless you counter overbuff yourself before fight and go first and 1 turn shot the boss.

Hereos of Might and Magic 3 and 5 - most of the times archers are picked up into melee, making them useless

Point being, if You have stat that dictates who goes first, you almost always make one tactic/unit(you get the point) useless. While with "randomness" you do not have that luxury. Need to adjust as situation progresses.

[ColorsFade]

Originally posted by Dexter:

Point being, if You have stat that dictates who goes first, you almost always make one tactic/unit(you get the point) useless. While with "randomness" you do not have that luxury. Need to adjust as situation progresses.

And that's precisely why I like the anonymous mode, because suddenly things like positioning, chokepoints, and abilities like Spear Wall and Barrage become factors.

I encourage everyone to try it, at least for a few battles. Make a save you can go back and give it a shot.

The game is still way fun without it (and I do enjoy the more relaxed mode of knowing which enemy will go next, and simply working through the encounter in that order), but it's a really nice option.

[Wulf[NL]]

Originally posted by Dexter:

Originally posted by MaruWeave:

Always interesting to see so many different opinions. Kinda shows how hard it is for developers as well. I think I played too much dofus, made me spoiled for initiative system hehehe.

Thing is, initiative order can be easly exploited.

Divinity 2: Original Sin - overbuffed boss goes first, 2 shots 1 or 2 of companions, unless you counter overbuff yourself before fight and go first and 1 turn shot the boss.

Hereos of Might and Magic 3 and 5 - most of the times archers are picked up into melee, making them useless

Point being, if You have stat that dictates who goes first, you almost always make one tactic/unit(you get the point) useless. While with "randomness" you do not have that luxury. Need to adjust as situation progresses.

This. It needs to be random to "simulate" a player AI where you don't know what the AI will do.
If it's not random (but initiative based) it will get exploited by the player.