A Discussion on Class Specialization

[Solstius]

Just wanted to do a discussion with everyone here in regards to class specializations. What are everyone's thoughts on them in terms of performance? Good, bad, etc. I'll list em here and then we can discuss if they are in the right spot or not. As for the numbering of the specializations, that is my way of giving those specializations a tier list within that class.

Performance Outcomes will be categorized as:
- Good
- Bad
- Specific

If the specialization does not have any of the 3 aforementioned designation, it means I'm still testing it or cannot decide yet.

Ranger:
1. Assassin - Good
2. Strategist - Good
3. Cutthroat - Specific
4. Poisoner - Specific to Bad

Archer:
1. Hunter - Good
2. Infantryman - Good
3. Beastmaster - Specific to Good

Swordsman:
1. Fighter - Good
2. Swordmaster - Specific to Good
3, Protector - Specific

Brute:
1. Vanguard - Good
2. Smasher - Specific
3. Destroyer - Good

Warrior:
1. Berserker - Good
2. Executioner - Good
3. Sentinel - Specific

Spearman:
1. Harpooner - Good
2. Herald - Specific
3. Pikeman - Specific to Good

Discussion takes into account up to access to level 11 which is the current level cap.

[Robin of Spiritwood]

Why is Ranger-Poisoner "Bad", and what could be done to improve it?

[Solstius]

Originally posted by Robin of Spiritwood:

Why is Ranger-Poisoner "Bad", and what could be done to improve it?

The Poisoner is great in that he provides alternate ways to defeat certain types of enemies like Region Bosses or extremely tanky hostiles that have way to much HP & Armour points. It's bad in that the scenarios regarding its performance is more tied to those specifically. For other hostiles you'd face, going for direct damage is of greater value. But that's just for me.

Poisoners feel like they just drop off as you progress deeper into the game. That and using Bleed and Burn makes things much easier for the most part.

For a buff, I'd say the solution would be to readjust the level 8 skill that doubles all poison counters on hostiles in an area. 3 Valour points really is too much...

[Neurosys]

I hit them with my sword. Sometimes my archers are all like ... pew pew

[gramcracker]

In most of my very hardest (non-boss) fights the poisoner was a real carry. If you have a muddy map you can kite enemies for days, or if there are narrow passages you can create a traffic jam where the ones in back stand around dying to poison.

But I do agree, as I've continued through the game poison's utility has definitely fallen off, since most enemies can just be killed before they even get to take a turn. And yeah, the three valor point double poison skill is pretty bad. I was hoping to find more synergies with poison as the game progressed, but all I have so far is the 2h axe which gets guaranteed crit on poisoned enemies, and the dagger which eats all the poison stacks to do more dmg. The dagger was a massive disappointment... it doesn't get anywhere near enough bonus dmg to be worth building up / eating all the stacks. .

For the rest of them, either more or less agree or I haven't really tried them. All three 2h specs are super strong, each in their own way, highly recommend!

[rompier02]

Originally posted by Solstius:

The Poisoner is great in that he provides alternate ways to defeat certain types of enemies like Region Bosses

Hi. I don't get this. Poison or DOTs do not work the same on bosses. They do not suffer hp loss when they end their turn. So how can it be specific for them? Meanwhile all normal enemies including your peeps do. Be it from bleeding/burning/poison

Originally posted by Solstius:

extremely tanky hostiles that have way to much HP & Armour points.

Name 1 enemy as per your description apart from the bosses/arena contestants? From my plays all high level enemies are ' tanky ' Don't believe me? Check out the guards hunting you when you embark on a criminal run.

[Robin of Spiritwood]

Originally posted by rompier02:

Hi. I don't get this. Poison or DOTs do not work the same on bosses. They do not suffer hp loss when they end their turn.

Bosses do get the HP loss at the end of the turn. But they move/attack multiple times per turn. So the DOT doesn't seem to work on them as the turn progresses.

Originally posted by Solstius:

For a buff, I'd say the solution would be to readjust the level 8 skill that doubles all poison counters on hostiles in an area. 3 Valour points really is too much...

It is the most expensive single skill, and it is decidedly not worth it.
In order for DOT abilities to do their thing, maybe they ought to apply a Slowdown. If the poison cloud did that, it would immediately become a much better obstacle.

( Bear Traps ought to give slowdown too, for that matter. )

In any case, the damage per Poison Stack at 5% is possibly too low? We need to get like 10 stacks to kill an enemy in a reasonable time. Because the Poisoner has to kite after applying poison, the best skill to take is the level 5 Instinctive Throw upgrade that resets movement. Not the Poisoned Weapon, which gives a piddling 2 stacks, and won't even work with the Whirlwind Bandit dagger.

Linking here to Kruppe's good post on the topic:
https://steamcommunity.com/app/1527950/discussions/0/3418810907950046220/

[Solstius]

Originally posted by rompier02:

Originally posted by Solstius:

The Poisoner is great in that he provides alternate ways to defeat certain types of enemies like Region Bosses

Hi. I don't get this. Poison or DOTs do not work the same on bosses. They do not suffer hp loss when they end their turn. So how can it be specific for them? Meanwhile all normal enemies including your peeps do. Be it from bleeding/burning/poison

Originally posted by Solstius:

extremely tanky hostiles that have way to much HP & Armour points.

Name 1 enemy as per your description apart from the bosses/arena contestants? From my plays all high level enemies are ' tanky ' Don't believe me? Check out the guards hunting you when you embark on a criminal run.

I dodge all the guards with ease so...

Also, general tanky units? Do people still go for bears by any chance?

[Solstius]

Originally posted by gramcracker:

In most of my very hardest (non-boss) fights the poisoner was a real carry. If you have a muddy map you can kite enemies for days, or if there are narrow passages you can create a traffic jam where the ones in back stand around dying to poison.

But I do agree, as I've continued through the game poison's utility has definitely fallen off, since most enemies can just be killed before they even get to take a turn. And yeah, the three valor point double poison skill is pretty bad. I was hoping to find more synergies with poison as the game progressed, but all I have so far is the 2h axe which gets guaranteed crit on poisoned enemies, and the dagger which eats all the poison stacks to do more dmg. The dagger was a massive disappointment... it doesn't get anywhere near enough bonus dmg to be worth building up / eating all the stacks. .

For the rest of them, either more or less agree or I haven't really tried them. All three 2h specs are super strong, each in their own way, highly recommend!

Agreed on all points.

[rompier02]

Originally posted by Solstius:

I dodge all the guards with ease so..

How? So...

Originally posted by Solstius:

Also, general tanky units? Do people still go for bears by any chance?

Bears tanky? Ok if you say so.

Originally posted by Robin of Spiritwood:

Originally posted by rompier02:

Hi. I don't get this. Poison or DOTs do not work the same on bosses. They do not suffer hp loss when they end their turn.

Bosses do get the HP loss at the end of the turn. But they move/attack multiple times per turn. So the DOT doesn't seem to work on them as the turn progresses.

Lund attacks twice per round. He loses DOT after the second turn where a new round starts.

[Robin of Spiritwood]

Originally posted by rompier02:

Lund attacks twice per round. He loses DOT after the second turn where a new round starts.

Really?
I haven't had him to fight for a long time. Is this something new?

[rompier02]

Originally posted by Robin of Spiritwood:

Originally posted by rompier02:

Lund attacks twice per round. He loses DOT after the second turn where a new round starts.

Really?
I haven't had him to fight for a long time. Is this something new?

Not sure if it is new. He sets up with the mace then lets loose on the targetted merc. Then he does the same routine on someone else whom he aims. Then will a new round starts. Can see from the turn order. The dots will take effect after he ends his final moves & a new round starts. Your peeps will suffer dot damage as soon as they end their turn.

[gramcracker]

Champion enemies only take dot damage at the end of the round, yeah, and they also seem to take less (half? quarter?) damage from dots as well. I haven't personally seen any of them cleanse dots at the start of the next round though, but I also haven't fought them all yet.

[macbraveheart68]

only plus I've seen to poison is the slow drain making it easier to capture units instead of killing them. a poison weapon is really the best option here. not a entire perk.
a ranger strategist with healing and a torch has 4 extra attacks with instinctive throw every turn with valor. not to mention everyone else getting extra attacks with strategist. you an use heal even if the person it's used on doesn't need it. tack on a poison weapon it's a good day.

[Kruppe]

Originally posted by Solstius:

Just wanted to do a discussion with everyone here in regards to class specializations. What are everyone's thoughts on them in terms of performance? Good, bad, etc. I'll list em here and then we can discuss if they are in the right spot or not. As for the numbering of the specializations, that is my way of giving those specializations a tier list within that class.

Performance Outcomes will be categorized as:
- Good
- Bad
- Specific

If the specialization does not have any of the 3 aforementioned designation, it means I'm still testing it or cannot decide yet.

Ranger:
1. Assassin - Good
2. Strategist - Good
3. Cutthroat - Specific
4. Poisoner - Specific to Bad

Archer:
1. Hunter - Good
2. Infantryman - Good
3. Beastmaster - Specific to Good

Swordsman:
1. Fighter - Good
2. Swordmaster - Specific to Good
3, Protector - Specific

Brute:
1. Vanguard - Good
2. Smasher - Specific
3. Destroyer - Good

Warrior:
1. Berserker - Good
2. Executioner - Good
3. Sentinel - Specific

Spearman:
1. Harpooner - Good
2. Herald - Specific
3. Pikeman - Specific to Good

Discussion takes into account up to access to level 11 which is the current level cap.

what's nice about this game is everyone has their OWN point of view - if you search through discussions on all those various classes - starting way back in February last year you'll find thoughts offered back then. There's a whole blurb on Explosive Gas as well.... hmmrph - oh, sorry - damn, that had some follow through - back in a minute