Are archers worth it?

[DaLagga]

I've seen some people say that beast builds are fun but if you're not planning on using animals, is it even worth it to have an archer? They don't seem to get much in the way of active abilities and while they can keep an enemy at bay, it just seems like spearmen are overall much better at this task as they get better armor, seem to deal more damage and don't have to worry about friendly fire.

[Neyreyan_Youtube]

archers are the most overpowered thing in the game

[DaLagga]

How so?

[prolych]

Two archers in the team must be.

Firstly, while they are small, they will quickly fill their comrades-in-arms with the wonderful ability "Ears on top", which will allow them to dodge arrows.

Secondly, there are two top bows with very tasty properties in the game.

Thirdly, archers are excellent finishers of fleeing enemies.

[DaLagga]

What is "Ears on top"? I don't see it listed as an ability and have no idea what that is. And what bows are good? The only ones I've really seen are the basic damage ones, a type that knocks enemies back and another that puts fire on the ground. And considering how quickly fire spreads it seems almost as detrimental to your on troops as the enemy.

[funkmonster7]

Nah, Archers aren't the most overpowered thing in the game. But they are definitely worth having 1 or 2 in your army.

It depends on how you play. If you use a Spear Wall defensive formation where you set up a literal spear wall and have your enemies impale themselves on it, then you can get a few Infantrymen (Archers) to set up kill zones behind the Pikemen (Spearmen). You don't need too many due to the Barrage ability costing 2 VP, but 2 Infantrymen will slaughter a lot of enemies at range just by standing there overwatching a kill zone. I lay down a kill zone this way in the early/mid-game, either fighting against ghost animals or in rat nests.

Mid/late-game however, I switched my Archers to Hunters, not only because Recoil Shot is so useful, but when upgraded it does far more damage than usual. Sometimes even Wrongdoers with bandit shields (that block 90% of shooting attack damages) can't take much of a hit, as they'd just get knocked back by 3m, and they get slowed down. Wrongdoers only have 8 movement, and getting it cut down to 4 movement = they'll never reach you = they will eventually die. My dual Hunters now also use the passive that inflicts Vulnerability every 2 hits, and upgraded also gives the Hunter the Fury passive. Since they each have 2 shots (regular shot and Recoil Shot), and they can be paired to snipe someone down if I really need them to, they're extremely powerful snipers.

The reason I switched them to a more active role (instead of just setting up a kill zone and then wait) is my 2 Rangers which are Assassins are doing a lot of killing, but they are highly mobile. And I don't employ the Spear Wall strategy as much; I only have 2 Pikemen, and they're mostly used to just zone out dangerous enemies that I don't want to engage with. That, and inflicting Destabilization on high-armor enemies. So that means even the Wrongdoer with bandit shields will get severely damaged by archer attacks.

Pikemen can zone enemies out, but only those that attack within 2m or less distance. Against other spear enemies or archers or those that use throwing weapons, they actually will need to absorb an attack at least. So they actually have a weakness.

Archers' weakness is simply damage. But with Recoil Shot, they almost entirely negated it. Unfortunately they don't have amazing bows sometimes... Even now at level 9 I'm using crafted bows because of the raw Dex stats I get from them. I'm sure by level 11 I'd have some equipment issues. This being said, the passive that keeps stacking up Rage buffs is also very strong. That is probably the reason why Infantrymen are so OP.

However the true MVP is Ranger, not Archer. With Instinctive Throw, they can go literally anywhere on the map and almost no one can catch them. If I have 2-3 of them, I can dispatch all enemy archers before they can even take a turn. Because sometimes in a single turn I can kill 2-3 of their guys (have to spend some VP though). If there's a guy who is absolutely untouchable, it is them, not Archers. And they also have a dagger that stacks Rage buffs too.

[funkmonster7]

Originally posted by DaLagga:

What is "Ears on top"? I don't see it listed as an ability and have no idea what that is. And what bows are good? The only ones I've really seen are the basic damage ones, a type that knocks enemies back and another that puts fire on the ground. And considering how quickly fire spreads it seems almost as detrimental to your on troops as the enemy.

Get Fireproof Ointments, should be a belt accessory craftable from your Alchemy tab. Put it on all of your melee guys, except level 8 Swordsmen with Hardcore Training. Although I don't put mine on the Rangers due to how often they use Run to proc Instinctive Throw (which also puts out the fire).

Stylish Bow is the one that puts fire on the ground. It is really good, because unlike other bows, its range is 14m, not 9m (but Aim doesn't double its range though, due to balancing). Sometimes when you hit multiple enemies with Stylish Bow, you proc that Rage buff three times. When upgraded, it gives you 2 Rage per hit i.e. 6 Rage when hitting 3 enemies bunched up together. That is an instant +30% damage on your next shot. If you're using Barrage camping build, your bow is likely going to be Stylish Bow. And none of your Pikemen will burn because they'll zone the burning enemies out. Or engage them with Swordsmen with Hardcore Training. You can even walk your melee units (not Swordsmen with Hardcore Training) through the fire tiles, but have them wear Fireproof Ointments, and set enemies on fire just by standing next to them. It is a decent strategy in early/mid-game.

The knockback bow (I forgot its name) is decent, a good substitute for when your Archer isn't a Hunter. Its base damage is pretty good too.

War Bow is the one you might want to look for when you can reliably put Vulnerable on your enemies. A few people can do that: Poisoners (although you'd likely spec your Rangers as Assassins), Brutes (heavy tank class, forgot its name), and Archers themselves... Upon critical hit, you shoot a second time. Downside is its damage can range from 30% to 80% Dex. So if you get a bad dice roll, you'd shoot for 60% total damage lol.

[prolych]

Originally posted by DaLagga:

What is "Ears on top"? I don't see it listed as an ability and have no idea what that is. And what bows are good? The only ones I've really seen are the basic damage ones, a type that knocks enemies back and another that puts fire on the ground. And considering how quickly fire spreads it seems almost as detrimental to your on troops as the enemy.

1. "Eyes in the back of their head" - Cannot be hit by allied arrows/
Two of my tanks have this wonderful ability.

2. Archers need to be equipped with crit. Then they often crit with excellent damage. It is also important for archers to give an ability that repels. She is often helpful.

Archers are especially effective at clearing plague rat lairs in two turns in order to kill six growths in time.

[funkmonster7]

I once took my sweet time clearing out a rat nest. I just camped over the holes that the rats spawned from... And took my sweet time healing up my damaged units, slowly but carefully moving from one outgrowth to another, before sending 1 Ranger with 30+ Rage Stacks (he was using Harag's Poignard, easily the most powerful dagger in the game) to go one-shot the boss rat.

I got like, 86 Infected Blood lol... This wouldn't have been possible if not for my two Infantrymen. One of them with Stylish Bow too. (They weren't at the level where they could get Rage stacks as it is a level 8 passive, I believe my party was all level 6 at the time.)

I did at one point camped out defensively with 2 Infantrymen shooting everything down. By the time one of my Infantrymen had 10 Rage stacks, the fight was basically over. I had Galvanisation on, so even a tank could walk into the kill zone and get one-shotted. I just don't do it anymore because why play defensively when offensively, I can kill almost everything in round 1 (with Rangers and Swordsmen with Riposte), and those that can't be killed I zone them with Pikemen.

[DaLagga]

Thanks for the responses. I see a lot of people praising Barrage, but I don't get why it's so useful when it doesn't stop the enemies in their tracks like Spear Wall does. Dealing some damage is nice and all, but most enemies will just walk through it without even losing half their armor and attack your archer or other allies. And again, the friendly fire issue is quite serious and it's the only class that has this problem as you can very easily avoid it with other classes with AoE attacks.

Recoil Shot does seem to be a lot more tactically useful, but why slow enemies down when you can simply stop them cold with Spear Wall? Spearmen just seem to get better buffs as well and so you are able to deal more damage on top of it. I mean, if you had a lot of archers I can totally see the appeal of taking Recoil Shot and Valorous Support so you never run out of VP, but that seems like a very slow way to win fights when big guys with 2handers can clean house, hit multiple enemies, deal WAY more damage and then use a couple of Spearmen for support to lock down tougher enemies.

I'm just trying to decide whether or not to keep my archer or dump him for a charging Brute with a big 2handed mace. I've got 10 mercenaries and I think that's the most I ever really want to have as more soldiers basically just means that battles start taking a whole heck of a lot longer so there's not much point in it if enemies are just going to scale in numbers along with me.

[Dies Fourth]

https://youtu.be/iXhtB3OPrL8

[Neyreyan_Youtube]

Originally posted by DaLagga:

Thanks for the responses. I see a lot of people praising Barrage, but I don't get why it's so useful when it doesn't stop the enemies in their tracks like Spear Wall does. Dealing some damage is nice and all, but most enemies will just walk through it without even losing half their armor and attack your archer or other allies. And again, the friendly fire issue is quite serious and it's the only class that has this problem as you can very easily avoid it with other classes with AoE attacks.

Recoil Shot does seem to be a lot more tactically useful, but why slow enemies down when you can simply stop them cold with Spear Wall? Spearmen just seem to get better buffs as well and so you are able to deal more damage on top of it. I mean, if you had a lot of archers I can totally see the appeal of taking Recoil Shot and Valorous Support so you never run out of VP, but that seems like a very slow way to win fights when big guys with 2handers can clean house, hit multiple enemies, deal WAY more damage and then use a couple of Spearmen for support to lock down tougher enemies.

I'm just trying to decide whether or not to keep my archer or dump him for a charging Brute with a big 2handed mace. I've got 10 mercenaries and I think that's the most I ever really want to have as more soldiers basically just means that battles start taking a whole heck of a lot longer so there's not much point in it if enemies are just going to scale in numbers along with me.

archers with barage shoot 5 times, 4 with the skill and 1 time normally. If you get the 1kill=1valor point, do the math.
Put a swordsman with the aoe sword and aoe ability in front and you have a perfect defensive/offensive combo.
There are many reasons but also think of the money you save by not having to repair armor and healing wounds so often

[DaLagga]

Originally posted by Neyreyan_Youtube:

archers with barage shoot 5 times, 4 with the skill and 1 time normally. If you get the 1kill=1valor point, do the math.

Unless you're fighting something like rats, the puny amount of damage that archers deal is never going to result in a kill on the first hit or even the 3rd or 4th for that matter against armored units. A spin-to-win Executioner on the other hand very well can get multiple kills in one attack because of their obscene damage output.

[Dies Fourth]

Originally posted by DaLagga:

Originally posted by Neyreyan_Youtube:

archers with barage shoot 5 times, 4 with the skill and 1 time normally. If you get the 1kill=1valor point, do the math.

Unless you're fighting something like rats, the puny amount of damage that archers deal is never going to result in a kill on the first hit or even the 3rd or 4th for that matter against armored units. A spin-to-win Executioner on the other hand very well can get multiple kills in one attack because of their obscene damage output.

Not true at all. With the right skills chosen an archer 1 hit crits alot of enemies as shown in that video and many more on YT. If it doesnt kill them it can apply bleed and other debuffs.

No 1 is saying they are the best or better than any other, the thread is about their usefullness and they have alot of it,

Beast master is also another option. The only person to say they cant kill on the 3/4th shot hasnt ever played 1 to its full potential.

[Stardustfire]

jup, 80+ dmg per shot is very puny, what means with upgraded barage an infantery archers deals out around 400+ dmg per turn if he gets 4 targets in the zone and can use his basic shot too.....
and than we can trick around with spearattacks for enemy displacement or even other bow users with displacement bows.....
not to mentation champions with there several actions per turn that can each trigger another overwatch shot....
maybe you shoud learn to skill your archers correct DaLagga.

[prolych]

I don't understand what you found in the infantry barrage with the archers? This is a terrible move that puts the archer in danger of being destroyed.