Dodges and Blocks

[Jin Mack]

Im a few hours into the game now, had about 5 battles, and ive noticed a real lack of any dodges and blocks or even complete misses, the archer never misses a shot and seems to have a miraculous 100% accuracy. My brute has been carrying around this huge shield all game yet i havent seen it do anything.

Due to the lack of any defensive and evasive skills, almost every battle is a slugfest.
Are defensive skills something that appears later on in the game or something, when my warriors are more skilled, or is this the core of the game, and i need get used to it?

[rompier02]

Hi. there is a dodge mechanic currently but it is restricted to a unit in the merchant party. Even then the mechanic is kinda silly in that it only take 1 attack to nullify the dodge & render that unit open to attacks in that round. Not sure if it will be a thing but it is good that you raised this.

[Plinto]

it was a design choice so unless they rework combat to include dodging/missing as part of the regular exchange (which i think they need to), then yeah get used to it

[andy_tenshi]

I actually found it refreshing to see the lack of "dice roll" blocks and dodges. This causes the combat to be more about how well you understand the mechanics and how well you can plan out each move, rather than luck.

It can be real frustrating in a game with heavy RNG (say pathfinder kingmaker for example) Where there's often fights where you do absolutely everything "right" and still lose because of bad rolls.

[Jin Mack]

Ok thanks guys, appreciate the advice.
Its going to be annoying but i think i can tolerate it to enjoy the base game.
Now i can plan ahead and expect to heal and repair every single battle.

Be it dice roll or not, watch any realistic combat, or combat related sports, UFC, Fencing, Boxing etc. Defense and evasion is always a critical factor, and without these elements, combat will never feel realistic in this game.

Imagine Xcom aliens had 100% hit rate, yuk. Would just be a healfest .....

[Left-Hand Path]

Originally posted by Jin Maq:

Ok thanks guys, appreciate the advice.
Its going to be annoying but i think i can tolerate it to enjoy the base game.
Now i can plan ahead and expect to heal and repair every single battle.

Be it dice roll or not, watch any realistic combat, or combat related sports, UFC, Fencing, Boxing etc. Defense and evasion is always a critical factor, and without these elements, combat will never feel realistic in this game.

Imagine Xcom aliens had 100% hit rate, yuk. Would just be a healfest .....

There are some defensive skills you can utilize, even some offensive skills have a defensive use (like weakening blow).

If I understand your OP right, you are looking for ways to migigate damage, yes ? While there is no avoidance mechanic that I am aware off, there are ways to reduce incoming damage:

1. Warrior branch has Deflect (-70%) and Encourage (AoE damage migigation buff -30%). Both interact with guard. My tanks usually only get hit for minimum damage, which isn´t even 5% of their total armor.

2. Sequencing and Positioning. As this is a deterministic system with next to no Dice Rolls, you can plan accordingy. Just take out your targets in turn order. If you can´t kill someone right away, bind him with a high guard unit with deflect on engage or deflect on use with a shield.

If your sequencing is well planed you will only take armor damage and maybe some health damage unless you punch above your pay grade.

I won´t go into the Deterministic Vs RNG based discussion because imho both approaches have their advantages and disadvantages. As someone who used to watch alot of fencing and HEMA however a snarky remark regarding realism(sorry for that):

Most of our units wouldn´t even make it back to camp after sustaining a cut from a longsword for instance, even if they survived the battle.
"There are only loosers in a knive fight, the guy who died on the spot and the guy who bleeds out on his way home."

What I am trying to say is that most games - apart from Hellish Quart perhaps - use some from of abstraction when dealing with damage, no pun intended : )

Do you know Battle Brothers ? It is a merc company game like this one, albeit much more simple graphics, but it has dice rolls.

[Jin Mack]

Thanks for the advice, so its more about mitigation than avoidance, im certainly going to plan my next playthrough a little different now.
My love for turn based games stems from the branch of final fantasy tactics, tactics ogre, and vandal hearts. Defensive abilities really made the game amazing, and i think thats why those games were so popular. Since this is still early access i hope the devs reconsider not having these abilities. I understand it would mean more work restructuring skill trees and what-not, but i think worth it for the long run.

[Kargan]

Unfortunately it is the real weakness of this game, the one that took away my desire to play Wartales, regardless of how ridiculous the lack of helmets is (in a game where armor is essential). And it's not the only one either, just see Chaos Gate.

Let's say it could have been a great game, so it will remain a castrated game with a fundamental part of it totally unrealistic.

[funkmonster7]

Originally posted by Jin Maq:

Ok thanks guys, appreciate the advice.
Its going to be annoying but i think i can tolerate it to enjoy the base game.
Now i can plan ahead and expect to heal and repair every single battle.

Be it dice roll or not, watch any realistic combat, or combat related sports, UFC, Fencing, Boxing etc. Defense and evasion is always a critical factor, and without these elements, combat will never feel realistic in this game.

Imagine Xcom aliens had 100% hit rate, yuk. Would just be a healfest .....

Treat the game like chess, not a "realistic" war simulation game. Chess has 100% hit rate too, but the game is completely balanced between two opponents. This game is single player, but it's not like there is no single-player chess before.

Basically, play how the game works, enjoy how the game works, not play how you want it to work. The latter will always disappoint you no matter what game you play. Even a heavily modded Skyrim will still disappoint me if all I do is pick at its weaknesses. Or an even better option is stop playing games and go pick up a pair of boxing gloves.

[Robin of Spiritwood]

Low Blow, a ranger perk, can cause enemies to miss at 50% rate.
Disarm, a Swordsman perk, can disable weapon attack once per turn.
The Targe item grants Deflection, a usable skill that removes 90% of the next attack damage.
Defensive Stance also grants Deflection.
Protection AOE perk can reduce incoming by 30%
Weakening Blow (Brutes) reduce enemy attack damage by 50%

Attack damage mitigation is mostly afforded through the Guard mechanic, which affects every attack subject to armor.

Archers can and do miss, causing friendly fire.

[Lemonidas]

I don't know is block/miss/dodge a good idea because with enemies scale with your party imagine having a team of lets say 30 companions you don't like the long battles like 15-20 minutes and now add block/miss/dodge with more rounds and time needed to win the battle + you know when a round has passed your fatigue rate lowers as like you were running on map... i don't know needs balance if will be added

[Kargan]

Just put a limit on the groups (yours and your enemy), indeed, it would be even better.

[Ittrix]

Originally posted by Jin Maq:

Imagine Xcom aliens had 100% hit rate, yuk. Would just be a healfest .....

Mario and rabids is commonly compared to xcom and they have 100% hitrate. Cover in that game is either 0 or 100%. The only RNG is low cover which is 50%... assuming you aren't doing damage via any of the other ways which are all also 100%. Plus, that 50% only works for a minute since it'll get destroyed if you 'miss'.

that said, there's a ton of ways to mitigate damage, As this one said...

Originally posted by Robin of Spiritwood:

Low Blow, a ranger perk, can cause enemies to miss at 50% rate.
Disarm, a Swordsman perk, can disable weapon attack once per turn.
The Targe item grants Deflection, a usable skill that removes 90% of the next attack damage.
Defensive Stance also grants Deflection.
Protection AOE perk can reduce incoming by 30%
Weakening Blow (Brutes) reduce enemy attack damage by 50%

Attack damage mitigation is mostly afforded through the Guard mechanic, which affects every attack subject to armor.

Archers can and do miss, causing friendly fire.

Don't forget spear wall. Melee enemies can't hit you if they can't reach you.
Enemies also can't walk through each other, so choke points are valid to limit the number of effective enemy attacks.
If you do it at a choke point then you can stop two enemies with spear wall and the rest will be stuck trying to get around the first two. Bears are a joke for me because of this.

[Stardustfire]

dodges and blocks on rng basis woudend fit well in the established system of this game. its already made for function without such things. hp and all other variables already rotate around the fact that you will get dmg when you get hit. if you bring in random things like dodges, blocks or miss it will mutate into a rng slugfeast, with way less tactic matters.

only thing such things woud be makeable woud be that they are implemented as actions for valour points (and with a hefty price in that) to fit in and dont destroy the battle balance,
take as example the skill that says you get 70% less dmg on the next hit. it already cost valour and it only works for the next incoming hit. both are predictable parameters. if we translate that to something that says you block the complete next dmg i woud say its only useable for shieldusers, cost still 1-2 vp and takes a big toll on the shield itself instead. for a dodge that completly negate the next dmg i woud demand at least 3VP cost to stop it from gamebreaking together with max light armor equiped.

[Jin Mack]

sorry but your logic if flawed, you cant just explain away the absence of a game mechanic by saying its RNG, Weather in games in RNG too, guess we should remove that? Also strip away meeting random NPC's too, cuz thats also RNG and messes with yoru superior winning tactics. the removal makes absolutely no sense. And anyone trying to justify it by saying it makes it too random, has no clue what they talking about.

Anyways, like the guy said above, talk it up in forums as much as you like, but the fact is, its not fun, and i have no desire to play the game again after my second playthrough, combat feels like chess you say? yeah well maybe thats the problem, i didnt look to buy a frekkin chess game.

[Stardustfire]

so your reason it must exist is becasue you want it, no matter the batle system was made for none rng? wow yeah your logic beats mine.....