I can't see any reason to invest in critical hit

[Romain]

What's your opinion?

[Neyreyan_Youtube]

More damage, a lot of damage actually. Especially with other buffs or effects, i like shorter fights:)

[Romain]

Originally posted by Neyreyan_Youtube:

More damage, a lot of damage actually. Especially with other buffs or effects, i like shorter fights:)

What I meant by "invest" was actually points in stats.

Between +1 strengh/Dexterity or +1% (Crit & damage crit) I can't see any reason to invest in critical "stats" (If I had the choice)

[Tigrecito]

first of all simple maths: depending on your weapons etc.. when one crit hit adds more than 100 damage, take the crit stat - if not stay with STR/DEX
(+1DEX/STR adds just 1 HP ... in 100 Hits you have added 100HP - that´s what your additional damage has to be with your 1% Crit chance !)

BUT: on the other hand with adding only 1HP I guess no fight will last shorter .. with crits 1 of 100 fights will last shorter .. this is a possible bonus...

to sum it up: most times I wold decide for the STR/DEX Bonus - but if I get (++) on crit and (+) on dex I will decide for crit!.. so if you savescum I would walways wait fro (++) for dex/str .. if not in most cases I take the (++) variant - except willpower and movement (if I already have 12 or 14)

[AF_Exotic]

Crit rate is the good stat for Ranger because they can easily get 50% crit rate and use the crafted weapon to add 30% more crit rate when hitting engaged enemy from behind, that way you'll get 80% crit rate which is good. Archer can benefit from it too especially if you can get a lvl 7-10 bow from Khagal (Champion)

For other classes investing on Crit rate is not that useful. At least that's my opinion based on my experience

[Tekamo]

there are also skills that always crit under certain circumstances .. like always crit a bleeding target with the 2hand axe pig iron or whatever the name..so you can skip crit completly on those chars

[AF_Exotic]

Originally posted by Tekamo:

there are also skills that always crit under certain circumstances .. like always crit a bleeding target with the 2hand axe pig iron or whatever the name..so you can skip crit completly on those chars

yep like i said crit rate is not that useful for other classes than ranger or archer because most of them will only get around 15-25% crit rate at most and there are some skills that will give you guarantee crit hit in some situation. Other example Archer can give vulnerability debuff to the enemy every 2 hits that will guarantee the 3rd hit to be crit hit for any char

[Tigrecito]

well even on ranger there are the same maths .. as long as you have no item or weapon which adds crits depending on the basestat value of crit, it is again the same calculation - do you get more than 100 damage with one additional crithit?

[AF_Exotic]

that's not how to do the math, ranger often get double stat at crit rate and you need to calculate it until level 5, other than that there are several more reason:
1. their best armor layer are either the falcon or rat armor layer which both give an additional crit rate as well
2. their best professions are either thief or thinkerer which give crit rate as well AND thinkerer level is pretty easy to level up just make a bunch of fish hook or lockpick which also increase their crit rate
3. the light armor that we can get from loot have additional crit rate as well and it's way better because investing knowledge in armor is just useless for now at least because all of them are trash
4. their off hand is a throwing knife which increase crit rate as well even torch also increase their crit rate
5. there are several belt that you can get or make that also increase crit rate
6. BONUS > there's a weapon oil that increase 10% crit rate, but this is limited because we can't get anymore powder for now

With all of that ranger can easily reach 80% crit rate (even without no 6) with backstab attack
Now this is how you do the math,
1. if you invest you all your stat on dex, you'll lose a double bonus stat because i'm sure ranger will get double bonus at crit rate in some point
2. having 10 additional dex and sacrificing 10% crit rate won't give you a lot of additional damage either probably just 5-10 more damage at most while if you get crit hit you'll get at least 35% more damage from the normal hit so let's say you just have 40 normal damage if it crit you'll get 14 additional damage at least and with 80% crit rate you'll get crit hit quite often

Edit: i never said to add everything on crit stat but when there's a double bonus on crit rate taking it is a big benefit for ranger rather than taking 1 dex

[Tigrecito]

All you said is true .. My ranger is also built on crit .. just wondering as far as I have seen all the additional crit stuff just directly adds a specific amount of crit - and doesn´t depend on the basevalue of crit. If this is true (please correct me if I am wrong) this leads again to the same math:

at the end when you level up the same question: 1% more crit chance or 1 more dex
doesn´t matter if your char already has 79% crit or 15% crit .. adding 1% more crit means exactly 1 additional crit hit more after 100 attacks..

taking your example:
40 normal damage and your char has
70% crit (because of all the items and weapons)
for easy calculation let us say you get even 50% more damage per crit

Now compare - I either invest all in 10 dex points or in 10% more crit:

10 more dex means 50 instead of 40 HP per attack
10% more crit means 80% crit instead of 70% crit

100 attacks: 100*50 = 5000 HP plus 0.7 * 2500 HP (crit) = 5000 + 1750 = 6750 total damage
or
100 attacks: 100*40 = 4000 HP plus 0,8 * 2000 HP (crit) = 4000 + 1600 = 5600 total damage

that means you even lose crit damage in total because the bonus of crit damage is calculated on your base damage with is lower when you invest into crit instead of dex

as long as my basic assumptions are not wrong, I don´t see any benefit in investing into crit instead of dex ! I don´t say crit is not usefull - I am only talking about investing the lvl up points either into crit or dex !

[AF_Exotic]

Originally posted by Tigrecito:

All you said is true .. My ranger is also built on crit .. just wondering as far as I have seen all the additional crit stuff just directly adds a specific amount of crit - and doesn´t depend on the basevalue of crit. If this is true (please correct me if I am wrong) this leads again to the same math:

at the end when you level up the same question: 1% more crit chance or 1 more dex
doesn´t matter if your char already has 79% crit or 15% crit .. adding 1% more crit means exactly 1 additional crit hit more after 100 attacks..

taking your example:
40 normal damage and your char has
70% crit (because of all the items and weapons)
for easy calculation let us say you get even 50% more damage per crit

Now compare - I either invest all in 10 dex points or in 10% more crit:

10 more dex means 50 instead of 40 HP per attack
10% more crit means 80% crit instead of 70% crit

100 attacks: 100*50 = 5000 HP plus 0.7 * 2500 HP (crit) = 5000 + 1750 = 6750 total damage
or
100 attacks: 100*40 = 4000 HP plus 0,8 * 2000 HP (crit) = 4000 + 1600 = 5600 total damage

that means you even lose crit damage in total because the bonus of crit damage is calculated on your base damage with is lower when you invest into crit instead of dex

as long as my basic assumptions are not wrong, I don´t see any benefit in investing into crit instead of dex ! I don´t say crit is not usefull - I am only talking about investing the lvl up points either into crit or dex !

the problem is in reality the probability didn't work like that, because less crit rate means less time you get crit hit and your calculation is like a fixed calculation. the "plus" can't be calculated like that because it's a chance, it's not like you calculate crit damage bonus where you can just calculate it by "base damage + base damage * crit damage percentage = total damage"

[Tigrecito]

of course a chance is exactly calculated like this. the more attacks you do the closer those values come to the same expected output ... if you only do 3 attacks they could all be crits even with 10% crit chance ... but if you do 10.000 attacks, you will get round about 1000 crits with that chance.
raise my example from 100 attacks to 10.000 and you will for sure come close to exactly those values ! the more attacks the closer you get to the estimated value!

[Romain]

Originally posted by Tigrecito:

10 more dex means 50 instead of 40 HP per attack
10% more crit means 80% crit instead of 70% crit

100 attacks: 100*50 = 5000 HP plus 0.7 * 2500 HP (crit) = 5000 + 1750 = 6750 total damage
or
100 attacks: 100*40 = 4000 HP plus 0,8 * 2000 HP (crit) = 4000 + 1600 = 5600 total damage

This is excatly what I think. The maths seems perfectly correct for me.

Moreover, there are few situations where crits stat are useless (guaranteed crits on skills, guaranteed crits with the proper buff ally) instead of STR/DEX far more consistent...

[AF_Exotic]

nevermind you guys just talking in a fixed math calculation not in reality. but either way if you choose 1 dex rather than 2 crit rate, it's still a lose. But just play as you want it, it's your gameplay, it's your own choice. Oh and btw crit stat also increase the crit damage so it's 1 dex vs 2% crit rate & 2% crit damage or if you want to make it 1:1 make it 1 dex vs 1% crit rate and 1% crit damage

[Tigrecito]

well that´s why I think we can discuss it - to get at the end maybe a really good advice for everybody. (by the way every game always has exactly those calculations behind - it is RNG with those values - just wonder if we already have all values we have to take into account)

As I said, I don´t know if all my assumptions are correct at the moment .. so I am happy to get some new input.

so you say, the crit stat also boosts the crit damage? the same percentage right?
So at the end we have minus 10% critdamage

which leads to (again we have 50% critdamage as base value):

100 attacks: 100*50 = 5000 + 0.7 * 0.5 * 5000 - 0.1 * 5000 = 5000 + 1750 - 500 = 6250 total damage
vs
100 attacks: 100*40 = 4000 + 0.8 * 0.5 * 4000 = 4000 + 1600 = 5600 total damage

atm still a benefit of dex .. anything else missing?
(I can´t check the game right now - it is true that on lvl up you get 1DEX vs 1%crit/1% critdamage (of course depending how many points you can invest) right ? I am talking about savescum, so where you really have the choice if you level crit or dex with maximum value available

[Romain]

Originally posted by AF_Exotic:

nevermind you guys just talking in a fixed math calculation not in reality.

there's no such things as "fixed maths"... that's just probability (and expected gain). We don't play LoL neither there's not a lot of variability.

If you have 1% chance to die from a disease it means 10 people out of a thousand sick will die.

But you're right we forgot the increasing critical damage and critical damage base line is only 25% not 50% like Tigrecito said.

So let's say we invest 10 points in STR/DEX or 10 point in Crits with a base line crit at 10%


100 attacks: 100*50 = 5000 HP plus 0.1 * 1250 HP (crit) = 5000 + 125 = 5125 total damage (critical damage at 25%)
or
100 attacks: 100*40 = 4000 HP plus 0,2 * 1400 HP (crit) = 4000 + 280 = 4280 total damage (critical damage at 35%)


Now that's an optimisation problem.


Il you attack every time from behind (20% crit chance) with all items involved in critics this could be a thing... but still... most of the time crits should be avoid it seems.

Edit : DEX improve crit chance and strengh improve crit damage but it seems it's not much (need to check properly). There's no crits gain directly by level (it seems)

Edit2: Let's say now we can increase up to lvl 10. Meaning 20 points in each :

100 attacks: 100*60 = 6000 HP plus 0.1 * 1500 HP (crit) = 6000 + 150 = 6150 total damage (critical damage at 25%)
or
100 attacks: 100*40 = 4000 HP plus 0,3 * 1800 HP (crit) = 4000 + 540 = 4540 total damage (critical damage at 45%)

The more you invest in Crits, The more the gap between both possibilities are increasing... not good for crits...