Intercepting convoys

[Anderson]

I have recently found that it's a real challenge for me to intercept a convoy.
In the past I've been lucky because I was in a favourable position, approaching perpendicularily onto it. Yet now it's otherwise!


My question is how does one exactly go faster to wait for the perfect moment to attack? Whenever I try to go at flank speed, at some point I'm spotted, even if I go away for like 6-8 km away from the convoy itself. Even in rough waters they seem to see me, but I see not other way to get ahead of them, because underwater the submarine is too slow as a rule.

If I was to use my hydrophones, I'm not exactly getting a good picture of how far exactly the ships are. When should one dive before making the attack? How safe is it to use anything more than "ahead slow" if your cover isn't blown? This is a little confusing and is never explained in tutorials.

[vonswe]

Stalk them, plot their course on the map and then go outside their visual range. Go flank or at least faster then them on pararell course until you are sure you are way ahead. Then turn perpendicular to them and sneak into position, dive and go slow to get a reading on them and hope they did not change course.
Early war, before radar, they can see you when you can see them, but that changes with the radar, at about 8km in clear weather.

[friscobay58]

Flank underwater. This matches between ''Slow'' and ''Medium'' for surface vessels other than military naval ones assembled in a Task Force, which will typically move at 21-22 KTs and thus outstrip your ability to close on them except in the most optimum condition [ i.e. They roll up on you totally unawares ].
New players can use the Weapons Officer to select targets at and near the 90 -degree range if they have enabled the automatic torpedo direction in the REALISM section of the game, located at the bottom right-hand side of the ''Mission'' display prior to starting a new mission which usually keeps ''NORMAL'' players at and around 29%. For those who have mastered the basics of the TDC,the ''Overhaul And Turn/Submerge '' option is more usually used as a means to acquire the ''T'', or 90 degree angle set up for shot.
Unlike SH4, be careful in selecting ''Fast'' torps for targets less than 1500 meters. These will usually overhaul the target and glide quickly past the targets bow into open waters. Medium and even Slow selections can and do bring down larger ships including C2/C3s and send them to Davy Jones within the 1200-1500 meter range when fired at the moment the target ship reaches 250 degrees at the average speed of 5-8 KTs.


How fast is my target even going?

Use the ''3 minute, 15 second'' rule. This is, find your target well out. You need not ID the target at this time. Bring up your map and use your PENCIL to mark THE BOW OF THE TARGET SHIP.

Next, quickly go back to your scope and stopwatch and immediately start it running...

Use the next three and one-quarter minutes to do one or several things, such as ensure that enough men are rested, or are in the fore torpedo section, damage control if-any, and close ID of the target ship. [ what kind of merch? Military? Destroyer or cruiser? Coastal or C2 Merch?]

At the immediate conclusion of the 3-1/4 minutes, quickly mark the BOW OF THE TARGET SHIP AGAIN.

Now. Take your RULER in the MAP section and draw a line between your FIRST mark, and your LAST one.

Voila.

You now have the target ships speed in knots and can set up your shot accordingly when based on speed alone.

''What about Depth''?

We are working on that one in especially ''rough waters'' and you can find us discussing this very thing at:

www.subsim.com 'RADIO ROOM'' [ SH3 ]

[Anderson]

Originally posted by friscobay58:

Flank underwater. This matches between ''Slow'' and ''Medium'' for surface vessels other than military naval ones assembled in a Task Force, which will typically move at 21-22 KTs and thus outstrip your ability to close on them except in the most optimum condition [ i.e. They roll up on you totally unawares ].
New players can use the Weapons Officer to select targets at and near the 90 -degree range if they have enabled the automatic torpedo direction in the REALISM section of the game, located at the bottom right-hand side of the ''Mission'' display prior to starting a new mission which usually keeps ''NORMAL'' players at and around 29%. For those who have mastered the basics of the TDC,the ''Overhaul And Turn/Submerge '' option is more usually used as a means to acquire the ''T'', or 90 degree angle set up for shot.
Unlike SH4, be careful in selecting ''Fast'' torps for targets less than 1500 meters. These will usually overhaul the target and glide quickly past the targets bow into open waters. Medium and even Slow selections can and do bring down larger ships including C2/C3s and send them to Davy Jones within the 1200-1500 meter range when fired at the moment the target ship reaches 250 degrees at the average speed of 5-8 KTs.


How fast is my target even going?

Use the ''3 minute, 15 second'' rule. This is, find your target well out. You need not ID the target at this time. Bring up your map and use your PENCIL to mark THE BOW OF THE TARGET SHIP.

Next, quickly go back to your scope and stopwatch and immediately start it running...

Use the next three and one-quarter minutes to do one or several things, such as ensure that enough men are rested, or are in the fore torpedo section, damage control if-any, and close ID of the target ship. [ what kind of merch? Military? Destroyer or cruiser? Coastal or C2 Merch?]

At the immediate conclusion of the 3-1/4 minutes, quickly mark the BOW OF THE TARGET SHIP AGAIN.

Now. Take your RULER in the MAP section and draw a line between your FIRST mark, and your LAST one.

Voila.

You now have the target ships speed in knots and can set up your shot accordingly when based on speed alone.

''What about Depth''?

We are working on that one in especially ''rough waters'' and you can find us discussing this very thing at:

www.subsim.com 'RADIO ROOM'' [ SH3 ]

Hah, thanks for the advice!
I'm not quite there yet to do everything manually, still learning the ropes. But I already like all of the challenge seen thus far.


The problem is that if I flank underwater, I will usually drain up my battery quite fast.
I saw some hints that you should check the direction of the convoy and then go away to like 10 km away from it and go Full Flank anticipating it's direction, diving often to see if you are on the right course. Yet for me it's really hard to figure out their exact direction with their hydrophone.

But, I guess practice makes perfect!

Hope I'll get better eventually.

[friscobay58]

You will Anderson. of this there is little doubt when playing enough to master basic TDC control. That which we are discussing at SUBSIM deals with moving slightly beyond TDC control into torpedo dynamics, which, as any player will instantly see even using auto-control, results in foul weather [and at times even fair ], premature detonation of the torp [ or German ''eel''], at some distance from the target.
This follows real-life problems and issues deriving from both the torps ''Pistol'' as well as its depth control which plagued the Unterzeebooten all through 1939 and 1940 with progress being made after the invasion of Norway in that year. What you and I experience at sea level is atmospheric pressure at about 14-15 PSI. This is what German torpedo engineers at the great naval munitions plants at Essen and elsewhere set depth levels at.
But a torp seated within a U-boat operating at depths exceeding 50 meters saw its depth counter altered by pressures inherent at such levels, triggering blown shots which the player will experience in SH3 and causing a ''What the blazes just happened''? reaction by the newer player when his perfectly aimed and even auto-directed shot blows up 200 meters short of the target.
Battery and air life controlled by the player in order to set realism at higher levels results in a more challenging game. Usually when detecting especially a convoy, I will surface even at daylight to get the maximum battery power, diving only when aircraft or armed surface ships come anywhere near, which is why you will maintain your best sailors as bridge watchmen in order to give earlier warning, and in the case of calm waters, parking a chief petty officer which I earlier gave a Gunnery Rating to in port at the controls of the boats flak gun with a Weps officer standing at the conn and going all out on the surface in order to both close with the enemy, and gain needed battery life long before the production of the Gerrman ''Schnorkel''. I have shot down enough allied aircraft in this manner during the 1939-1942 period especially, to create an ''Ace'' boat. Keeping your boat ahead to either port or starboard while determining convoy speed using the ''3 minute rule'',in your approach helps to create the optimum condition of turning into, and settling down to wait for your targets at a full stop, positioning your craft into the T of the oncoming convoy. Keep on your sonarman as the convoy approaches in order to get the latest direction coordinates, and upgrade these devices in port whenever possible. Again, top watchstanders are key to success both in radio, sonar, bridge, weapons, and damage control.

[Anderson]

Originally posted by friscobay58:

You will Anderson. of this there is little doubt when playing enough to master basic TDC control. That which we are discussing at SUBSIM deals with moving slightly beyond TDC control into torpedo dynamics, which, as any player will instantly see even using auto-control, results in foul weather [and at times even fair ], premature detonation of the torp [ or German ''eel''], at some distance from the target.
This follows real-life problems and issues deriving from both the torps ''Pistol'' as well as its depth control which plagued the Unterzeebooten all through 1939 and 1940 with progress being made after the invasion of Norway in that year. What you and I experience at sea level is atmospheric pressure at about 14-15 PSI. This is what German torpedo engineers at the great naval munitions plants at Essen and elsewhere set depth levels at.
But a torp seated within a U-boat operating at depths exceeding 50 meters saw its depth counter altered by pressures inherent at such levels, triggering blown shots which the player will experience in SH3 and causing a ''What the blazes just happened''? reaction by the newer player when his perfectly aimed and even auto-directed shot blows up 200 meters short of the target.
Battery and air life controlled by the player in order to set realism at higher levels results in a more challenging game. Usually when detecting especially a convoy, I will surface even at daylight to get the maximum battery power, diving only when aircraft or armed surface ships come anywhere near, which is why you will maintain your best sailors as bridge watchmen in order to give earlier warning, and in the case of calm waters, parking a chief petty officer which I earlier gave a Gunnery Rating to in port at the controls of the boats flak gun with a Weps officer standing at the conn and going all out on the surface in order to both close with the enemy, and gain needed battery life long before the production of the Gerrman ''Schnorkel''. I have shot down enough allied aircraft in this manner during the 1939-1942 period especially, to create an ''Ace'' boat. Keeping your boat ahead to either port or starboard while determining convoy speed using the ''3 minute rule'',in your approach helps to create the optimum condition of turning into, and settling down to wait for your targets at a full stop, positioning your craft into the T of the oncoming convoy. Keep on your sonarman as the convoy approaches in order to get the latest direction coordinates, and upgrade these devices in port whenever possible. Again, top watchstanders are key to success both in radio, sonar, bridge, weapons, and damage control.

As I understand, premature torpedo detonation occurse only if I set them to Magnetic contact in the "Pistol" setting when in the Torpedo Attack Map.
I have never encountered problems with the "impact" pistol however.

It seems to be safer to go with impact, espcially if my shot is perfectly aligned and planned, yet magnetic might be more sensitive and less likely to *not* detonate when hitting a ship in a more tricky situation with bad weather and such.

The worst thing to ever happen is a premature explosion in a last chance to hit a convoy while it's not aware of you! Then, with the destroyers it's nearly impossible to do it again properly.
And off to the endless ocean with you...

[Anderson]

Practice makes perfect after all!
Managed to get on near France, a smooth sinking of an Ore Carrier and even got a few torpedoes into a battleship, which unfortuntely didn't seem to go to the bottom regardless, yet at least I cheer to see a challenge like that - you don't get them every day!

[friscobay58]

You sure dont, and especially not at the speeds with which they usually travel. My best hope in bringing down a KING GEORGE V running at around 16-18 KTs just northwest of Scapa Flow in early 1940 laid in nailing him with a I-IV spread shot at the bow to-midships set medium where my AOB was just a little under 3 degrees starboard coming on fast when her powder mag went sky-high and I went hotfooting out of there rising to surface flank before the now-wise DEs could cut across the Taffy to get at me while I plowed into a thin mist. Were this real life, it would have been a paid drunk all round at a dockside tavern in Lorient upon arrival. That and the few coastals I brought down was worth a First Class and plenty of tin to spread around to the mates once back in port.

[Anderson]

Originally posted by friscobay58:

You sure dont, and especially not at the speeds with which they usually travel. My best hope in bringing down a KING GEORGE V running at around 16-18 KTs just northwest of Scapa Flow in early 1940 laid in nailing him with a I-IV spread shot at the bow to-midships set medium where my AOB was just a little under 3 degrees starboard coming on fast when her powder mag went sky-high and I went hotfooting out of there rising to surface flank before the now-wise DEs could cut across the Taffy to get at me while I plowed into a thin mist. Were this real life, it would have been a paid drunk all round at a dockside tavern in Lorient upon arrival. That and the few coastals I brought down was worth a First Class and plenty of tin to spread around to the mates once back in port.

By the way, do you know what does it depend on, how the ship sinks?
Is it mandatory to launch 4 torpedoes to sink a warship, or maybe it is enough just one shot? Is it random or predetermined?

[friscobay58]

Predetermination lay in the UBISOFT AIs chance ratio. Here, the dev determines based upon historical placement, where the powder mag of a KGV class Battleship is located. It is this unseen thin sliver of markers running fore and aft of this location where a single well-placed shot will send it lifting out of the water with a huge explosion. In the case of the KGV, it is immediately forward of midships. It is a near centerline shot of true difficulty. I can attest that I have never made such a shot on a BB, usually opting for a four-torpedo spread. [neither did Gunther Prien of U-47, who sent HMS ARK ROYAL down with also, four shots of 1 and 3 ].
I have however, made many single-shots [ also called ''cracking the egg'' ] at midships on lowlier vessels including FLOWER corvettes, DEs [ escorts ] C2 and coastal cargoes, and once, which I immediately regretted as it was so harmless and thought I would miss when I didnt, a small fishing trawler which simply vanished. To sink a ship with one shot of any size is a most satisfying experience.

[Anderson]

Originally posted by friscobay58:

Predetermination lay in the UBISOFT AIs chance ratio. Here, the dev determines based upon historical placement, where the powder mag of a KGV class Battleship is located. It is this unseen thin sliver of markers running fore and aft of this location where a single well-placed shot will send it lifting out of the water with a huge explosion. In the case of the KGV, it is immediately forward of midships. It is a near centerline shot of true difficulty. I can attest that I have never made such a shot on a BB, usually opting for a four-torpedo spread. [neither did Gunther Prien of U-47, who sent HMS ARK ROYAL down with also, four shots of 1 and 3 ].
I have however, made many single-shots [ also called ''cracking the egg'' ] at midships on lowlier vessels including FLOWER corvettes, DEs [ escorts ] C2 and coastal cargoes, and once, which I immediately regretted as it was so harmless and thought I would miss when I didnt, a small fishing trawler which simply vanished. To sink a ship with one shot of any size is a most satisfying experience.

Indeed, it's worth a million words to describe that moment.
One more question, how often is it possible to encounter French ships on the French coasts? I mean other than small trawlers and such (because it's all I met). I always thought there would be convoys that contain both French and British ships, yet France seems to lack a navy, at least in the game.
During the period of the "Strange War" I was under the impression that France would be in full force. I wonder if it was really so.

[vonswe]

Hey, if you are playing vanilla game you sink ships by reducing hitpoints and if you go closer then 1000m at perfect AOB you will see in the sweetspots for possible one shot kills in the Rec manual.
In GWX you have sinking by flooding, it can take a long time for them to sink.. Wait for it and hope you will not need to use another fish, surface and sink it with the deck gun? Or get it done quickly with another fish and leave the area before planes show up? Depends on the year how much time you have.
The Frensh Navy, you might want to study this site: http://ww2navalmatters.blogspot.se/2012/01/french-navy-during-world-war-ii.html

[friscobay58]

The French Navy is mysteriously absent in SH3. This is for reasons that may have less to do with historical content than they do with vessel formatting.

To begin with, there was no French navy worth mentioning operating in the Channel or North Sea region during the period of the 1939-1940 ''Phony War''. What navy it had was located in the Med, operating out of Toulon, which was the scene of the French navies scuttling of its capital ships when they refused to turn these over to the Italians, even though acting as agents themselves of the Vichy collaborationist regime with the Nazis. Kriegsmarine Adm. Raeder ordered elements of the 7th and 2nd SS Panzer Divisions [ DAS REICH ] to enter Toulon and capture the naval base before the French, now dissolving into arguing factions either backing the Vichyists or De Gaulles Free French, could blow the Italy deal by taking their ships out of the war.
Too late, as before the eyes of the panzer soldiers approaching the Toulon docks on the morning of Nov.27,1942, the French sailors blew everything sky-high sending 77 ships to the bottom of the port. In a supreme irony, both sides were livid at the naval carnage. Hitler, for not gaining the ships for his Italian ally Mussolini, [ who ended up with a handful of ships later raised and repaired in drydock ], and De Gaulle, for the refusal of Vichy French Admiral Darlan to take the ships to an allied port, especially given that the American invasion of North Africa and its investment of critical Moroccan ports Oran and Casablanca was already accomplished by this time and the Allies, having now moved into Algeria.
Admiral Darlan , by now a liability to the Germans, headed for Algeria as a military governor of all French forces operating in North Africa where he turned over control to General Eisenhower in November of 1942. Seen as a sell-out by both sides, this drama ends with the assassination of Darlan in Algiers only days after US forces entered the city. For its portion, Unterzeebooten operating out of La Spezia with the 29th, would take limited advantage of the chaos to sink several US and British ships before moving to Toulon in Jan. 1943.

[Anderson]

Very interesting... I didn't know how weak they were.
So technically it's just best to presume that France falls in summer of 1940 regardless and ignore that aspect.

I might as well go into the Mediterranean sea and maybe I will find some more luck there, including British ships.

[Anderson]

Concerning flooding: it seems that even if the side of the ship or the front of it is shifted into the sea after a few torpedo ships. That ship may still survive and proceed with evasive manuevers!
Is it possible that the flooding has been stopped in the said ship? That the crew somehow managed to handle it and continue in spite of som parts of the ship already flooded? I ask because it seem that even an hour may not be enough to sink something like that at times.

[vonswe]

If the flooding does not exceed the critical level of buoyancy it will not go down. I have waited for up to 2 hours for ships to sink, and sometimes they did, but if it is not down after 40 min hit it again. After, say -43, you will not have time to wait around like that. Allways send at least 2 fish to make relatively sure it goes down so you can clear datum.