Why creating this in Apple II was a mistake

[Dark Wombat]

The choice to write this on Apple was a mistake in my opinion. I could have told you that and we are beginning to see the reaction on these forums. There are almost no games on Steam that look like this. Apple II suffered from color bleeding and it has always looked terrible. No one on the official Nox forums will tell you this because...well if you go there and sign up you are obviously already a fan.

I am an Ultima collector and have just about everything. I understand that a lot of the original Ultima games were created on an Apple. I love retro games and have a Commodore system with all the trimmings and a Commodore monitor. I also own an Atari 800 with everything. It is also nice that this game makes use of original Apple diskettes and I assume you can make them into a physical form..

But why would you?

The issue here is this...Commodore computers have a massive following even today. With things like the Ultimate 64. Apple II just does not have the following that the C64 has even in emulation form.

Secondly, as mentioned above the Apple II has bad color bleeding. That might not be the technical name, but I have always felt it just looks bad. Added to that is the fact that this games looks to be designed with a lot of details. Way more than typical Ultima games and with a serif font to boot! Its a complete mess.

I respect the heck out of the technical achievement here but was it ever discussed to create this in C64 or PC to provide a much cleaner looking game?

In all I think this was clearly a missed opportunity. Of course you will please the hardcore Apple fans, but I think you would have been much more successful going the PC or C64 route.

I wish you the best of luck!

[mwirkk]

This is an homage to Apple II and early, pivotal games that appeared on that platform. What platform do you think it should have been created on instead?

[Qoojo]

C64, which is 6502 based as well. I do agree that C64 would have been a much better experience.

Originally posted by Dark Wombat:

I respect the heck out of the technical achievement here but was it ever discussed to create this in C64 or PC to provide a much cleaner looking game?

I do not agree that the PC would have been better, because late 80s PC games were a downgrade over C64 versions, or you are suggesting that they create yet another indie "pixel art throwback" game, which the vast majority of devs have no clue about what that means, and most look horrible.

[CT6502]

Hi Dark Wombat,
I really appreciate your comments, and how thoughtful they are. There are a number of different answers that I could give, but here's some thoughts. First, Mark Lemmert (the game creator) and the rest of the 6502 Workshop team (including myself) were Apple II users back in the day, and that is where our "retro computing" passion lies.

Our goal in creating the game wasn't about making money, or striking it "big", or even reaching the most number of gamers. You're absolutely right, if we had wanted to reach a wider audience, we should definitely have done this for either the Commodore 64 or a straight-up PC game. However, that was never the intention. Our goal was to create a fun game that took where the Apple II CRPG's left off in the 1980's, and see how far the platform could be pushed.

So in the game we have things like pop-up windows, a streamlined inventory system, quick combat, minimal grinding, no level scaling, etc. All things that either hadn't been invented back then, but are a key part of any modern RPG.

We also wanted to create a "boxed set", with "feelies" like a game manual, cloth map, coins, and other goodies, just like you would have bought off the shelf back in the day.

From the feedback that we have gotten in both the Apple II and the wider retro computing community, it seems like the game resonates with people.

Putting the game up on Steam and GOG was a stretch, both in terms of whether it would work technically, and whether it was a good idea. Yes, there have been people who have complained about the fuzzy graphics, the font, color bleeding, the game speed, etc. But the vast majority of people have been very supportive. Most importantly, many more people have joined our Discord community, and are having tons of fun discussing the game, asking questions, talking about other games, etc. For that reason alone, I would say it was worth it.

All that being said, this could certainly go south and we could start getting lots of bad reviews. But the team and I are really hoping that people see the game for what it is, warts and all. It's fun, it has a compelling story, you might need to squint and use your imagination for some of the graphics. But that's fine with us, and it seems to be okay with lots of other people.

I'd be happy to continue the conversation over on our discord (discord.noxarchaist.com). No need to buy the game - just jump in and say hello!

-Chris
6502 Workshop

[Infinite Pudding]

Do you guys remember when you were a kid, you were at the play ground and all your friends and you were having a good time? Then this weird kid comes and ♥♥♥♥♥ in the sand box? :/ Yeah that's what this is.

[Underwhelmed]

I DONT LIKE A THING AND CANT UNDERSTAND WHY EVERYBODY DOESNT HATE IT LIKE ME, A VERY COOL GUY THAT IS AWESOME.

Seriously though bought this game on GOG and it is great.

[mwirkk]

Originally posted by Underwhelmed:

I DONT LIKE A THING AND CANT UNDERSTAND WHY EVERYBODY DOESNT HATE IT LIKE ME, A VERY COOL GUY THAT IS AWESOME.

Humorous, if but a bit harsh maybe? I think the OP makes good points and asks good questions. And Chris from 6502Workshop did an excellent job of answering those concerns. But I think you're making comment on doubters in general and not about this thread in particular, if I understand you correctly. I hope OP doesn't feel like he's being piled on here, because he doesn't deserve to be. Least of all, by me. I think I may have come off as snarky, though that was not my intention. :)

Originally posted by Underwhelmed:

Seriously though bought this game on GOG and it is great.

Whoohoo! Me too. <;b

[xxracer]

I'd like to play this game and understand the reasons why the developer chose the Apple II over the C64 ( pure nostalgia which I relate to ) but I do agree the "color bleeding" puts me off. I grew up with the C64 / Amiga so I remember how the Apple II games looked like and never liked it. That said, I do love the Ultima style RPG games and would play a new game like it but the graphics throws me off.

Are there any plans to release a C64 or at least cleaner ( as in, no color bleeding ) version of this game?

***

Never mind, read the developer's response in another thread. No other version is planned.

[Dark Wombat]

Lots of good responses here and some unreasonable ones as well, all is welcome!

I appreciate the developers response and based on what they set out to do they definitely accomplished their goal.

I WANT this game to succeed, we need more like it for sure. Maybe I need to spend more time with the demo to see if it grows on me a bit.

[CT6502]

Originally posted by Dark Wombat:

Lots of good responses here and some unreasonable ones as well, all is welcome!

I appreciate the developers response and based on what they set out to do they definitely accomplished their goal.

I WANT this game to succeed, we need more like it for sure. Maybe I need to spend more time with the demo to see if it grows on me a bit.

Thanks Dark Wombat! And I would definitely urge you to jump over to discord.noxarchaist.com and talk to some of the players and developers. Despite the slightly-wonky graphics, it really is a deep and compelling game, yet it also has lots of humor in it.

[ratoa]

To the OP , I used some of the most popular HOME Computers back in the 80's including [VIC-20, C-64, C-128, Apple IIC, and COCO' ] here on NTSC land.

I'm a Commodre 64 fan myself and that computer is my favorite from that era but I do believe there are some technical challenges porting this to my beloved C64 and one of them is ram, Apple IIe/IIc have 128kb of ram . That been said the Commodore scene is more lively than the Apple II Globaly with at least one or two releases a moth either Hombrew or commercial! Maybe they can pull it off with some Wizardy coding and using REU but that will take some rewrite of the code.

[E.V. Barnard]

Originally posted by Dark Wombat:

The choice to write this on Apple was a mistake in my opinion. I could have told you that...

But why would you?...

Yeah and it should have been fully rendered in 3D....With VR support, right??? Maybe they should have added in some microtransactions to really make a lot of quick money...

Jokes aside, I think you've entirely missed the point here...hope you get it when you give the game another chance...I'm also not a fan of telling people who criticize something that they should just make their own version of it instead of complaining but here I think it's warranted.

Anyone who starts off a post with 'I could have told you...' like they're some kind of expert who should have been consulted before someone else dared to make the thing isn't looking to offer constructive critique.

[Siight]

It's actually kind of funny, this is the second game I've found that was developed for an old system. I was late finding this and the other one. Am definitely going to buy this...also loved your explanation on choice of platform to originally base it off.

[CT6502]

Originally posted by Siight:

It's actually kind of funny, this is the second game I've found that was developed for an old system. I was late finding this and the other one. Am definitely going to buy this...also loved your explanation on choice of platform to originally base it off.

Cool, I'm glad that you found the game! Be sure to head over to our discord server (discord.noxarchaist.com) to chat with other players and the devs.

[iGPUGamer]

Being an Apple ][e user back in the day, I can tell you I don't miss the horrible graphics. And yes, this game appeared in my Steam Recommendations list, and when I full screened the video, like I usually do, that was more or less when my interest in buying the game evaporated. Still interested to know more about the game as I played my share of Ultimas and Questrons back in the day, but no longer to actually play them again. The closest games in feel to those Apple ][ RPGs I actually played to completion in modern day are games like the Avadon and the Avernum series.

[CT6502]

Thanks for your remarks. I completely understand your thoughts and reservations about the Apple II graphics. I guess the only thing that I could add in "defense" is that the gameplay is key. We've tried to create a game which has a compelling storyline and also removed a lot of the old-school annoyances, like having to hunt for food to survive or spending tons of time mucking around in the inventory screens.

Maybe one data point - my brother and I used to play these games as kids (Wizardry and Ultima). He's not into retro computers like I am, but I sent him the Nox game just for fun. He gave it a shot and now he's hooked! So there's still something there that can keep a modern gamer engaged.

Anyway, I'm not trying to oversell the game or the graphics. It is what it is, but you might just give it a chance next time the game goes on sale. Plus, there is a thriving and very friendly community over on our Discord server. Thanks for taking a look!