Yet another "Dark Souls" like game with forced PvP for Co op

[SlappedByAFish]

Mild shock

[pathtracer]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Namethatworks:

I just don't understand making yourself play something that includes something you hate.

if a game on the whole really speaks to me, but also has a couple design decisions I don't like (but can disable or mod out), I'm not going to just write off the whole game because of those few aspects. that'd be absurd.

I love DS3 and elden ring because of their worlds, atmosphere, and the mechanical feel of combat -- but hate the difficulty and the invasions. so I play with mods. DS3 and ER are games for me.

I'm sure I would love the world and atmosphere of sekiro, but I hate the lack of character creation and the mechanical feel of combat (even with mods), so.... I don't play it. sekiro is NOT a game for me.

LotF, from what I can tell, is going to fall firmly in the former category.

[LukeBu]

I also played pvp, and not just to get all of the achievements either. I'm no pro but I did alright. Again no one is asking for anything to be removed from your game, and I'm done discussing this, as it's not producing anything to note. If you want to reply to my previous statement to the one above great, but I'm done replying to every straw man attack and forum troll.

[NEGRO LANGA]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Akasha:

More directly in the perfect situation, there is an item you can use to prevent PvP invasions for a set amount of time, theoretically if you had 999 of that item you'd never have to PvP while playing coop.

that item is for solo players only iirc

[Akasha]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von NEGRO LANGA:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Akasha:

More directly in the perfect situation, there is an item you can use to prevent PvP invasions for a set amount of time, theoretically if you had 999 of that item you'd never have to PvP while playing coop.

that item is for solo players only iirc

Well damn, doom and gloom for them if that's true. I'd forgot outside of PvP, and earning stuff from it, what the purpose of being online while solo is. Like is it for ghost death spots online? Otherwise the item seems pointless.

[Namethatworks]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von LukeBu:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Namethatworks:

*Snip*

I feel the need to apologize first, as I honestly have not read or watched all of the content released by devs that you may have seen.
That's on me for being lazy, I am new here, and obviously less invested than you in outcomes here.

Hmm? I'm not mad, maybe a little disappointed.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von LukeBu:

English is not a great language TBH, and I haven't spent the effort making an essay level preamble, stipulating terms. So while I am frustrated with your aggression, and possible evasiveness, I interpret it all as misunderstanding.
Thankfully you have replied with the same things so much I might be able to state the answer I was hoping you would give, and please correct me if I am wrong.

"The devs said that co-op invasions are a core part of the experience of this game, required to play it as intended. I believe even discussing something against that is disrespectful."

No discussing not liking it is fine. It's another all together wanting the creator to change it.
That is where the word you don't like comes in.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von LukeBu:

I do not personally see feature requests, or modding as disrespectful of the game's intent, nor do I want to ruin your experience. If the devs have really said that, it's super interesting, even if I am skeptical of how integral that will be. If the stars, reviews, and price point align for me I look forward to checking it out eventually.
Some games are so great, that when they fall short, playing outside of dev scope end up making them even more loved and respected.

The harm is that your request is antithetical to their vision.

And if you want to mod your copy of your game that is fine just don't expect to not get banned from their games services the thing that allows your Co-op play.

But, you are requesting they alter it which is a slap in the face of an artist.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von LukeBu:

I modded Dragon's Dogma to have multiple saves, after playing it to max level. I modded everything in Skyrim after I got bored, because the base game has so much to offer, but gets stale before you get to experience everything. I am not as much a literalist as you when it comes to defining respect for video games, but I am also just interested in stating my opinion once (or at least until it is understood) and moving on.

Those are also games that don't have direct multiplayer, I'm aware of DD's Pawn system.
So your modding especially Skyrim as it has zero multiplayer is completely normal.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von LukeBu:

I have to admit, not understanding the fervor of a few people here, I became and still am very curious to understand. If someone else has a different motive, or if you have more to add or correct as I would not wish to interpret you incorrectly, I would love to hear it. I especially am interested if anyone has another take on why invasion free co-op should not be an option for other people.

All of these aggressive attacks on my character will be ignored. Don't use every person you have discussed this with as a straw man for me.

The reasoning has been given again and again you just don't like the answer.

I'm not attacking your character calling you entitled is the truth of how you are acting.
You expect things to change to meet your preferences.

see definition

entitled
adjective:
"feeling that you have the right to do or have what you want without having to work for it or deserve it, just because of who you are"

source: Cambridge dictionary.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/entitled

It's not meant as an insult I'm just calling a spade a spade. Like calling the Sun bright.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von LukeBu:

Restating what we already agree about core concepts of games like PVP and invasions being great, and devs being the ultimate decision makers of their games, I will also be ignoring. We all know this. You are free to keep typing it, but as a speed-reader, it will only take me half a second to parse it away.
If you are that frustrated step away for your own well being, or try reading what I say as I intend it to be heard in your head, polite and curious.

The only frustration is that you dismiss facts that you don't like.
And you dismiss restating again while doing so yourself.

You clearly want an echo chamber.

[Namethatworks]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Akasha:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von NEGRO LANGA:

that item is for solo players only iirc

Well damn, doom and gloom for them if that's true. I'd forgot outside of PvP, and earning stuff from it, what the purpose of being online while solo is. Like is it for ghost death spots online? Otherwise the item seems pointless.

Well the Invasion Covenant is only one of the 3, another is for Co-op, and another is a revenge one.(We have the least info on this one.) It requires a hard challenge be beaten.

[Namethatworks]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Pink Eye:

I hope we get those big pvp invasions from Dark Souls 2. By far the best part of that game. Those crazy invasions.

Invasions are only one invader at a time(at least the PvP ones)

[Namethatworks]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Pink Eye:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Namethatworks:

Invasions are only one invader at a time(at least the PvP ones)

SAD!

Lol at least it's only 1 Co-operative player.

[Sledge]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von pathtracer:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Namethatworks:

I just don't understand making yourself play something that includes something you hate.

if a game on the whole really speaks to me, but also has a couple design decisions I don't like (but can disable or mod out), I'm not going to just write off the whole game because of those few aspects. that'd be absurd.

I love DS3 and elden ring because of their worlds, atmosphere, and the mechanical feel of combat -- but hate the difficulty and the invasions. so I play with mods. DS3 and ER are games for me.

I'm sure I would love the world and atmosphere of sekiro, but I hate the lack of character creation and the mechanical feel of combat (even with mods), so.... I don't play it. sekiro is NOT a game for me.

LotF, from what I can tell, is going to fall firmly in the former category.

You play with mods, so I would assume you use mods to make the game easier then? That's fine, I don't really care as to what people do when they play solo, but difficulty is significantly more baked into the Dark Souls / Elden Ring experience than invasions are because it permeates throughout the entirety of each game. It's not so much an optional feature as it is something that the games were built in-mind with.

At that point, I'd actually argue that the games aren't for you at all and the ability to mod them is warping your perception of what a demographic is. You seemingly don't fit into said demographic based on difficulty alone (something the genre is synonymous with) but want to brute your way in on the basis of enjoying, as you've said, worlds, atmosphere and how the combat functions.

I could be wrong or have read that wrong, I don't know, the statement just rubs my mind weird. It's not so much an issue with you modding, or modding difficulty away or to be easier, I just wouldn't pick up games known to be challenging with the intent to mod that out or make it easier and then declare that said genre is for me, that's all.

[Namethatworks]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Jay #2:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von pathtracer:

if a game on the whole really speaks to me, but also has a couple design decisions I don't like (but can disable or mod out), I'm not going to just write off the whole game because of those few aspects. that'd be absurd.

I love DS3 and elden ring because of their worlds, atmosphere, and the mechanical feel of combat -- but hate the difficulty and the invasions. so I play with mods. DS3 and ER are games for me.

I'm sure I would love the world and atmosphere of sekiro, but I hate the lack of character creation and the mechanical feel of combat (even with mods), so.... I don't play it. sekiro is NOT a game for me.

LotF, from what I can tell, is going to fall firmly in the former category.

You play with mods, so I would assume you use mods to make the game easier then? That's fine, I don't really care as to what people do when they play solo, but difficulty is significantly more baked into the Dark Souls / Elden Ring experience than invasions are because it permeates throughout the entirety of each game. It's not so much an optional feature as it is something that the games were built in-mind with.

At that point, I'd actually argue that the games aren't for you at all and the ability to mod them is warping your perception of what a demographic is. You seemingly don't fit into said demographic based on difficulty alone, but want to brute your way in on the basis of enjoying, as you've said, worlds, atmosphere and how the combat functions.

I could be wrong or have read that wrong, I don't know, the statement just rubs my mind weird. It's not so much an issue with you modding, or modding difficulty away or to be easier, I just wouldn't pick up games known to be challenging with the intent to mod that out or make it easier and then declare that said genre is for me, that's all.

The Subgenre has always been about overcoming seemingly impossible odds reducing the difficulty is cheating yourself out of a large part of the experience.

We are but insignificant specks that scrounge together scraps of power to overcome the giants set before us.

If the bosses just sort of die when smacked a couple of times how is your journey in anyway about growth or overcoming the odds stacked against you.

You'd be playing a Mary Sue.

[Sledge]

Ultimately, if people want to cheat themselves out of said experience, that's their prerogative, it doesn't affect me.

It's more so that my brain doesn't compute with the logic that a game IS for somebody if one of the key / core components of it is potentially modded out.

It's not so much that these games are insanely, top-tier difficult, the hardest of the hard, it's just baked into the experience on a foundational level.

I could have read or interpreted Path's statement wrong though, I assumed difficulty was modded out or changed based on wording.

[LukeBu]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Namethatworks:

No discussing not liking it is fine. It's another all together wanting the creator to change it.
That is where the word you don't like comes in.

Thank you for clarifying. I think its a pretty fine line between discussing and requesting, but I think you are a little too fast to jump on that soapbox and scream at me about DEMANDING, but we are here on the internet, where all we are to each other sometimes is text so I won't get offended. If this game is worth it on its merits for price I'll get it at that point.
I am hesitant to ask for you to elaborate more about what I actually asked for over you possibly again soapboxing random details of my apparently botched attempt to talk you out of that, but feel free to elaborate on what I actually asked like you did eventually do here.
If anyone else has other reasons I am curious, so let me know.

[Namethatworks]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von LukeBu:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Namethatworks:

No discussing not liking it is fine. It's another all together wanting the creator to change it.
That is where the word you don't like comes in.

Thank you for clarifying. I think its a pretty fine line between discussing and requesting, but I think you are a little too fast to jump on that soapbox and scream at me about DEMANDING, but we are here on the internet, where all we are to each other sometimes is text so I won't get offended. If this game is worth it on its merits for price I'll get it at that point.
I am hesitant to ask for you to elaborate more about what I actually asked for over you possibly again soapboxing random details of my apparently botched attempt to talk you out of that, but feel free to elaborate on what I actually asked like you did eventually do here.
If anyone else has other reasons I am curious, so let me know.

Which question? they were all answered as again you just don't like the answer.

if you mean this:

"I just don't understand not wanting people to play a game more than letting them opt out of a mechanic. I don't see the logic, or the motive. I totally understand defending a studio for making a game their way, as an experience, and not wanting to spend resources catering to other audiences. I still think this would be incredibly easy to implement, and have no negatives. I am just waiting for one of you to explain the negatives, or your logic or motives."

My motive is artistic integrity as it goes against the creators intended vision.

Invasions are there to balance Co-op play so turning them off would mean you would breeze through the game that they are making with the intent of being difficult.

Invasions are also part of the world building so turning them off is akin to losing out on the whole experience as the Dev's intend.

They represent the Cult of the dead Demon God group that are actively fighting against a "good" aligned character that are trying to stop its revival.

[LukeBu]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Namethatworks:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von LukeBu:

Thank you for clarifying. I think its a pretty fine line between discussing and requesting, but I think you are a little too fast to jump on that soapbox and scream at me about DEMANDING, but we are here on the internet, where all we are to each other sometimes is text so I won't get offended. If this game is worth it on its merits for price I'll get it at that point.
I am hesitant to ask for you to elaborate more about what I actually asked for over you possibly again soapboxing random details of my apparently botched attempt to talk you out of that, but feel free to elaborate on what I actually asked like you did eventually do here.
If anyone else has other reasons I am curious, so let me know.

Which question? they were all answered as again you just don't like the answer.

if you mean this:

"I just don't understand not wanting people to play a game more than letting them opt out of a mechanic. I don't see the logic, or the motive. I totally understand defending a studio for making a game their way, as an experience, and not wanting to spend resources catering to other audiences. I still think this would be incredibly easy to implement, and have no negatives. I am just waiting for one of you to explain the negatives, or your logic or motives."

My motive is artistic integrity as it goes against the creators intended vision.

Invasions are there to balance Co-op play so turning them off would mean you would breeze through the game that they are making with the intent of being difficult.

Invasions are also part of the world building so turning them off is akin to losing out on the whole experience as the Dev's intend.

They represent the Cult of the dead Demon God group that are activlely fighting against a "good" aligned character that are trying to stop its revival.

You have made yourself abundantly clear, you may stop at any time.
I am pretty sure you aren't talking to me anymore, if you ever were.
I keep trying to discuss something specific, but you can't seem to do anything but put me in a box so you can type at me all day about artistic integrity when I just want to know what people in this forum get out of forced PVP. You get their artistic integrity being preserved as a result. Great! I understand and respect that! You may pick something else to talk about if you wish.

As to why I think you keep saying "I don't like the answer." I think that is because I did not, honestly, because it was not an answer to the question I was trying to ask, and not because I disagree with what you are saying. I really don't. I was more interested in why people like that decision, outside of it being their decision (just in case you feel like saying artistic integrity again), and people's motives for that, but I wanted you to feel good that you at least answered my question and have clearly stated how you feel about people asking devs to change their game, even if I am very bored of discussing and now several posts later, still attempting to not discuss that with you. It took us so much work just to get to that point, I wanted to celebrate it a bit. I would love to hear about this from the devs too, as they might have an interesting take on it. I guess I'll have to read up on it some more.

I fully understand you, and agree that it would be entitled of me to demand that the devs change their vision just for me. I would love a purely co-op difficult soulslike, and will patiently wait for that to exist elsewhere if it isn't attainable here. Maybe it will be easy enough to farm items, or maybe I can talk my friends into enjoying invasions. If not, I fully accept this game may not be what I was hoping for. I am also curious to see how much if anything this decision adds to the game beyond preserving that vision.

[Runaan]

PvP is the way to go. You always have the option to play solo. I don't know what is the problem.