Did one of the devs get a colonoscopy to get the map structure lay-out for this game?

[76561198391721182]

Because it really does feel like exploring through a gay dudes butthole, just to avoid "linear game progression" so they made the game have as many platforming sections and tight twists with areas that loop into itself 1000 times

[Lexomatico]

the level design in the game might be the 2nd worse thing after the quest design, i have no idea why people praise it so much... sure eventually they all loop back to the main hub which is nice and needed for the no bonfire mode but past that the levels in itself are filled with useless little loops like you said

[Killer Kitten]

Oh my gosh. I don't think I ever got more turned around before in my life.

I decided to go ramping through the Fens for a half hour to figure the map out and I couldn't. I was able to figure out the feif's logic. But yeah, the individual maps are pretty bad.

[EF_Neo1st]

Originally posted by 76561198391721182:

Because it really does feel like exploring through a gay dudes butthole, just to avoid "linear game progression" so they made the game have as many platforming sections and tight twists with areas that loop into itself 1000 times

You never played a "Tomb Raider game" (not a Prince of Persia parkour games of LAU or the Uncharted linear experience of 2013 game) to know what a "non-linear game" look like and it was not even among the most complicated metroidvania style of its time but the demanding platforming sure was "a thing it stood out for".

Platforming in this game is baby steps at other games.

[Shoah Kahn]

The map design is one of the strongest points of LotF, and I'd go as far as to say it's in the league of Dark Souls I -- one of the more lauded ARPG map designs. Other than the "the door is locked from the other side" and "push down ladder" tropes, the map, in terms of structure and look is, IMO. top notch.

I actually hope that the map in LotF2 is more of the same, only bigger, more labyrinthine, more interactable, and more nebulous in pathing / progression that this game's. Having to actually think when traversing a game world, is a welcome throw-back to the "pre-casual" era of game design.

[ダミ]

Honestly, I think the maps are designed to confuse the player, more so when they are stuck in the Umbral and desperately seeking a statue to get back. Let me not get started on the glowing orbs that contain that soul sucking monster which either kills you or forces you into the Umbral again.

[EF_Neo1st]

Originally posted by ダミ:

Honestly, I think the maps are designed to confuse the player, more so when they are stuck in the Umbral and desperately seeking a statue to get back. Let me not get started on the glowing orbs that contain that soul sucking monster which either kills you or forces you into the Umbral again.

Being desperate seeking for a statue when in Umbral is 100% on the player, whenever you need to go to Umbral you already had access or could had access to a Umbral statue before going to Umbral (so it is a matter of "looking for the statue before going to Umbral")

[ダミ]

Originally posted by EF_Neo1st:

Originally posted by ダミ:

Honestly, I think the maps are designed to confuse the player, more so when they are stuck in the Umbral and desperately seeking a statue to get back. Let me not get started on the glowing orbs that contain that soul sucking monster which either kills you or forces you into the Umbral again.

Being desperate seeking for a statue when in Umbral is 100% on the player, whenever you need to go to Umbral you already had access or could had access to a Umbral statue before going to Umbral (so it is a matter of "looking for the statue before going to Umbral")

Sorry, I don't wander around the game looking for statues to return to. I play for the action and the story, back tracking is an unnecessary chore.

[EF_Neo1st]

Originally posted by ダミ:

Originally posted by EF_Neo1st:

Being desperate seeking for a statue when in Umbral is 100% on the player, whenever you need to go to Umbral you already had access or could had access to a Umbral statue before going to Umbral (so it is a matter of "looking for the statue before going to Umbral")

Sorry, I don't wander around the game looking for statues to return to. I play for the action and the story, back tracking is an unnecessary chore.

You dont even need to "look for", the statues make a sound whenever you get close (be it at Umbrall or not) if the statue was not already used, so it is not a matter of "I dont go looking for it", it is close and it even make a sound to literally tell you that it is nearby somewhere (it may eb behind a wall tho and you may have to circle around or enter a location but if it is near it make a sound).

What you said is the same thing as "I dont look for seeds or vestiges because I want action", Umbral statues are as important as Vestiges in that regard, if you ignore it then you have to "go searching desperate to leave Umbral because you did not knew beforehand where it could be" (when you could had known beforehand and even before entering Umbral because hardly it is far from you).

There are occasions where you have to enter Umbral first to then find the statue, yes, but it also is "very close" from where you entered and not noticing it (as it glows white at any distance and make a sound whe you get close) is again your fault not fault of the game. The Umbral statues never are too far away form where you need them.

[Killer Kitten]

Originally posted by EF_Neo1st:

Originally posted by ダミ:

Sorry, I don't wander around the game looking for statues to return to. I play for the action and the story, back tracking is an unnecessary chore.

You dont even need to "look for", the statues make a sound whenever you get close (be it at Umbrall or not) if the statue was not already used, so it is not a matter of "I dont go looking for it", it is close and it even make a sound to literally tell you that it is nearby somewhere (it may eb behind a wall tho and you may have to circle around or enter a location but if it is near it make a sound).

What you said is the same thing as "I dont look for seeds or vestiges because I want action", Umbral statues are as important as Vestiges in that regard, if you ignore it then you have to "go searching desperate to leave Umbral because you did not knew beforehand where it could be" (when you could had known beforehand and even before entering Umbral because hardly it is far from you).

There are occasions where you have to enter Umbral first to then find the statue, yes, but it also is "very close" from where you entered and not noticing it (as it glows white at any distance and make a sound whe you get close) is again your fault not fault of the game. The Umbral statues never are too far away form where you need them.

Dude, you just never know what you're talking about.

Yes, in mandatory areas where you need to go into umbrel, you will find the statues nearby. Yes, there are visual, tactical, and auditory cues when you are near one. I get what you're saying. It's not the whole picture.

There are times where you go into umbrel without wanting to or when it's not mandatory. Like when you die... or you're at an enemy whose attached to parasite... or you're just looking for secrets... or you were invaded.

When the local map is confusing and difficult to find your way around, it can make coming back to axem difficult. This is compounded if you already used a many of the statues, and you're too confused by the lack variety in the environment to find your way back to a vestiges to reset them!

[mayhem523]

Originally posted by Killer Kitten:

There are times where you go into umbrel without wanting to or when it's not mandatory. Like when you die... or you're at an enemy whose attached to parasite... or you're just looking for secrets... or you were invaded.

I hope you aren't going into umbral every time you need to deal with a parasite... you're supposed to just hold up your lamp and syphon it. You only have to go into umbral if you need to soulflay something.

The map design is pretty brilliant once you learn it and you especially appreciate it doing a no vestige playthrough like originally intended. It was designed for not having fast travel, which is why it winds back into itself so often. You also weren't supposed to spend that much time in Umbral, it was supposed to be dangerous and foreboding, not somewhere you hang out for 20 minutes at a time. They've strayed pretty far from their original vision trying to please everyone.

[EF_Neo1st]

Originally posted by Killer Kitten:

Originally posted by EF_Neo1st:

You dont even need to "look for", the statues make a sound whenever you get close (be it at Umbrall or not) if the statue was not already used, so it is not a matter of "I dont go looking for it", it is close and it even make a sound to literally tell you that it is nearby somewhere (it may eb behind a wall tho and you may have to circle around or enter a location but if it is near it make a sound).

What you said is the same thing as "I dont look for seeds or vestiges because I want action", Umbral statues are as important as Vestiges in that regard, if you ignore it then you have to "go searching desperate to leave Umbral because you did not knew beforehand where it could be" (when you could had known beforehand and even before entering Umbral because hardly it is far from you).

There are occasions where you have to enter Umbral first to then find the statue, yes, but it also is "very close" from where you entered and not noticing it (as it glows white at any distance and make a sound whe you get close) is again your fault not fault of the game. The Umbral statues never are too far away form where you need them.

Dude, you just never know what you're talking about.

Yes, in mandatory areas where you need to go into umbrel, you will find the statues nearby. Yes, there are visual, tactical, and auditory cues when you are near one. I get what you're saying. It's not the whole picture.

There are times where you go into umbrel without wanting to or when it's not mandatory. Like when you die... or you're at an enemy whose attached to parasite... or you're just looking for secrets... or you were invaded.

When the local map is confusing and difficult to find your way around, it can make coming back to axem difficult. This is compounded if you already used a many of the statues, and you're too confused by the lack variety in the environment to find your way back to a vestiges to reset them!

If you go tyo Umbral when it is not mandatory (so I think by getting killed once) then "again" it is not fault of the game for not havikng a Umbral statue nearby.
It has a statue "whenever needed to traverse" either some optional area or mandatory section, Umbral statues can be used for the reason you got killed and now want to return from Umbral but it is not the "primary use" neither why it is set there (tho there are at least 2 occasions where I remember the game delivering 2 Umbral statues nearby with only 1 secret location, that being because the previous or next encounter may have been demed as "almost mandatory death" so the second Umbral statue exist for that reason).

That aside the game delivers plenty of vestige seed locations you can rest (so it would fix the return to Umbral situation) and I dont remember going through all this hassle more than 1 orr 2 times after getting killed (and one of those times was when I was behind Pieta, looking for the next Vestige while being low lvl with a pair of buckets, the other time I think I was at the mines but I dont remember any other time I had this issue, there always had either a seed location or a statue "sort of" nearby or that I had already went by).

Btw, I did not use the map for anything, when I found out about the map (actual map) I had access already even to the castle and already knew most of the layouts by memory because I had explored the areas at least 2 or 3 times.

[EF_Neo1st]

Originally posted by mayhem523:

Originally posted by Killer Kitten:

There are times where you go into umbrel without wanting to or when it's not mandatory. Like when you die... or you're at an enemy whose attached to parasite... or you're just looking for secrets... or you were invaded.

I hope you aren't going into umbral every time you need to deal with a parasite... you're supposed to just hold up your lamp and syphon it. You only have to go into umbral if you need to soulflay something .

I was doing exactly that (going to Umbral to kill the parasite) until I had killed 3 or 4 bosses and Kinrangr Guardian Folard I was trying over and over to go to Umbral to kill the parasite to be able tod eal damage to the boss and the 2 little craps but the Mendacious Visage throwing stuff around nonstop along with the 2 little craps is what was killing me.
THERE I learned it was possible to deal with the parasite without going to Umbral (and it is my fault, the game explains how it is done at the beginning of the game but I skipped the explanation).

[Astral Projection]

Only confusing levels are maybe swamp and mins. Everything else is quite well done.

[ScowlEasy]

Try to do most of your exploration in Umbral. Trying to memorize/learn 2 different layouts for the same biome is a recipe for getting confused. IIRC there's never a time you're forced leave umbral for platforming/exploration reasons outside of like, once in a side area

[EF_Neo1st]

Originally posted by ScowlEasy:

Try to do most of your exploration in Umbral. Trying to memorize/learn 2 different layouts for the same biome is a recipe for getting confused. IIRC there's never a time you're forced leave umbral for platforming/exploration reasons outside of like, once in a side area

I did not have issues.
Whenever Umbral is needed it is quite clear like dead end with unfinished platforms in the normal world, or somewhere with door that dont open, etc, also "almost always" there is a Umbral statue nearby too, so a lot of cues indicating when to go to Umbral to continue.