Does anyone know the lore accurate reason why the dark crusaders shun umbral magic, yet several have wielded the umbral lamp, and also have wither damage?

[X YdoC]

I thought the whole deal was shunning the light to walk in the dark and all that? I've been going my whole playthrough as a dark crusader, or a "death knight" as I've been calling it, using umbral magic as my backup thinking that was what they would use, and after doing the exacters quest I can clearly tell that is not the case, and they still use radiant magic. Why is the lamp and weapons ok, but the magic considered heresy? It's very strange to me.

EDIT* I think I have came up with my own answer that makes sense to me. It's possible we kept Molhu alive for the sole purpose of helping us wield the power of umbral. The lamp is a tool, not unlike a catalyst, but does not require knowledge in the umbral to use, whereas the spells do. Whether knowledge of the umbral and umbral magic its self is heresy, I do not know, but I believe the true heresy is derived from the actual umbral realm and the worship of the putrid mother, since the dark crusaders worship Orius. Using umbral as a weapon in any form may not actually be considered heresy, but if it was, then umbral magic would have to be the closest form as it actually takes knowledge of the umbral to use. So I'll stick with that. Whether all lamp bearers are dark crusaders or not, idk, but I'm sure that won't be too hard to find out.

[Object-13]

I think regular crusaders use radiant magic cause they are crusaders. We, however, as lamp herald are considered heresy and lesser or rather neccessary evil.

[X YdoC]

Originally posted by Object-13:

I think regular crusaders use radiant magic cause they are crusaders. We, however, as lamp herald are considered heresy and lesser or rather neccessary evil.

That makes sense, still, no one really has any views towards us other than pity for having the burden of the lamp. They seem to still view us as good overall. Maybe it's more of a fear what they don't understand thing, and they are used to the lamp so it's not as big of a deal? I know they killed off all the Nohuta except Molhu. That opening cutscene is really misleading when they say in comes the dark crusader and it's Isaac the lampbearer. That made me think the dark crusaders were lampbearers. Evidently that's not the case either. Still, that might open the way for umbral magic to be "ok" to use for lamp bearers exclusively.

[D. Flame]

The lamp is basically necromancy.

[TheRaggedyRoom]

Originally posted by Object-13:

I think regular crusaders use radiant magic cause they are crusaders. We, however, as lamp herald are considered heresy and lesser or rather neccessary evil.

This is Correct, it literally says so in the Intro Movie

[X YdoC]

Originally posted by TheRaggedyRoom:

Originally posted by Object-13:

I think regular crusaders use radiant magic cause they are crusaders. We, however, as lamp herald are considered heresy and lesser or rather neccessary evil.

This is Correct, it literally says so in the Intro Movie

The intro movie says thus a new blah blah was born, the dark crusader, then shows isaac wielding the umbral lamp, and talks about shunning the light to walk in the dark to have the power to defy a god. It does not say the difference between dark crusaders and lamp bearers, and more so implies that dark crusaders are lamp bearers. Even if it did explain the difference, it still would not answer my question. Why would the lamp be a necessary evil and umbral magic still be heresy, if they are both born of the same thing? The lamp was literally crafted by Molhu, the last of the race that was slaughtered for being heretics.

[D. Flame]

Originally posted by X YdoC:

Originally posted by TheRaggedyRoom:

This is Correct, it literally says so in the Intro Movie

The intro movie says thus a new blah blah was born, the dark crusader, then shows isaac wielding the umbral lamp, and talks about shunning the light to walk in the dark to have the power to defy a god. It does not say the difference between dark crusaders and lamp bearers, and more so implies that dark crusaders are lamp bearers. Even if it did explain the difference, it still would not answer my question. Why would the lamp be a necessary evil and umbral magic still be heresy, if they are both born of the same thing? The lamp was literally crafted by Molhu, the last of the race that was slaughtered for being heretics.

Necromancy is evil. The lamp is basically necromancy because you are walking in the realm of the dead, ripping out souls, etc. You are basically trespassing on the realm of god.

However, there are enemies in the game that are literally unhurtable until you soul flay their tag alongs. You are literally using evil to fight evil, because good can't win without it.

[X YdoC]

Originally posted by D. Flame:

Originally posted by X YdoC:

The intro movie says thus a new blah blah was born, the dark crusader, then shows isaac wielding the umbral lamp, and talks about shunning the light to walk in the dark to have the power to defy a god. It does not say the difference between dark crusaders and lamp bearers, and more so implies that dark crusaders are lamp bearers. Even if it did explain the difference, it still would not answer my question. Why would the lamp be a necessary evil and umbral magic still be heresy, if they are both born of the same thing? The lamp was literally crafted by Molhu, the last of the race that was slaughtered for being heretics.

Necromancy is evil. The lamp is basically necromancy because you are walking in the realm of the dead, ripping out souls, etc. You are basically trespassing on the realm of god.

However, there are enemies in the game that are literally unhurtable until you soul flay their tag alongs. You are literally using evil to fight evil, because good can't win without it.

Dude I know it's basically necromancy lol that award was sarcastic. That is completely irrelevant to anything I am talking about. Look at the hallowed sentinels, they are clearly evil in what they do and how they go about things, yet are deemed holy and good. Rhogar is also evil. The line between good and evil is usually very blurred in these types of games. Everything is evil. If anything in this world, umbral should be the neutral category, not evil. It also takes both radiance and inferno to use, which backs that up. Regardless, I'm not here to debate what umbral is.

My question is what is the LORE ACCURATE reason as to why the UMBRAL LAMP, which is CREATED by Molhu, the last of the Nohuta, who were slaughtered for being heretics, is ACCEPTED and USED by the dark crusaders, as well as having wither damage on their weapons, which is umbral, yet UMBRAL MAGIC its self, is still SHUNNED and deemed as HERESY. Nobody wants to answer that question. If you don't know, then just don't answer, because I'm checking this forum for an answer to my question, not to go back and forth about surface level info.

Right now I'm leaning towards Lampbearers being their own thing entirely, and not exclusively dark crusaders, and are therefore basically "allowed" to use any means necessary to accomplish their goal, or they are still dark crusaders, yet are allowed to use any means because they currently wield the lamp. The exacter from the dark crusaders shuns umbral, and throughout his quest line gets more and more captivated by it and goes insane. The Lost Berescu's catalyst is an umbral catalyst and was used by a former lampbearer, and does not mention them being a dark crusader, so whether they were or not, obviously it is not unheard of for a lampbearer at least to use umbral magic. If they weren't a dark crusader, then I think the opening cutscene just led me astray a little. However, the exacter calls us dark crusader upon exiting dialogue when we have done nothing to earn that, so it does pose a genuine question. Are all lampbearers dark crusaders? If so, then what is the answer to my question. Vanguard Barros of the dark crusaders has wither damage on his sword, yet he is not mentioned as a lampbearer, so something isn't adding up. Maybe I missed something early in the game when I wasn't paying as much attention idk.

[D. Flame]

It doesn’t seem like you get that the lamp is considered heresy as well.

They use heresy to fight heresy. The lamp is NOT considered an exception, but it is a tool that they USE ANYWAY. This is why they are called "Dark" and why they "shun the light and walk in the dark to protect the light".

Plus, you have to imagine there is a major difference between using a premade tool, and fully immersing yourself in the study and use of dark magics.

[Markytous]

In one of the stigmas I thought there is a conversation where Paladin Isaac is contemplating the sinfulness of his role in the grand scheme to Dunmire. Dunmire returns with essentially "is your sinfulness more dastardly than that of the rest of the world"? Dark Crusaders walk a path of isolation due to their method of exacting "justice".

In essence, we all as Lampbearers sort of show the moral grey that is the Umbral Lamp and its nature. Even gods themselves do not satiate the Lamp's hunger for souls. I think to answer your question, it IS heresy. It's just the heresy we have to use to make a change to fate in this realm.

[Rodi]

I think you got it with the edit part of your post.
There is a difference between using umbral powered items, which are not made by humans (at least not the lamp, but probably not the weapons too) and going all the way into studying umbral knowledge and casting umbral spells yourself. Exacter Dunmire's questline is a good example of why umbral magic/knowledge is heresy. That is the domain of a different entity, the Putrid Mother, with very different goals than Orion.

[Yian Yan]

Originally posted by X YdoC:

Originally posted by D. Flame:

Necromancy is evil. The lamp is basically necromancy because you are walking in the realm of the dead, ripping out souls, etc. You are basically trespassing on the realm of god.

However, there are enemies in the game that are literally unhurtable until you soul flay their tag alongs. You are literally using evil to fight evil, because good can't win without it.

Dude I know it's basically necromancy lol that award was sarcastic. That is completely irrelevant to anything I am talking about. Look at the hallowed sentinels, they are clearly evil in what they do and how they go about things, yet are deemed holy and good. Rhogar is also evil. The line between good and evil is usually very blurred in these types of games. Everything is evil. If anything in this world, umbral should be the neutral category, not evil. It also takes both radiance and inferno to use, which backs that up. Regardless, I'm not here to debate what umbral is.

My question is what is the LORE ACCURATE reason as to why the UMBRAL LAMP, which is CREATED by Molhu, the last of the Nohuta, who were slaughtered for being heretics, is ACCEPTED and USED by the dark crusaders, as well as having wither damage on their weapons, which is umbral, yet UMBRAL MAGIC its self, is still SHUNNED and deemed as HERESY. Nobody wants to answer that question. If you don't know, then just don't answer, because I'm checking this forum for an answer to my question, not to go back and forth about surface level info.

Right now I'm leaning towards Lampbearers being their own thing entirely, and not exclusively dark crusaders, and are therefore basically "allowed" to use any means necessary to accomplish their goal, or they are still dark crusaders, yet are allowed to use any means because they currently wield the lamp. The exacter from the dark crusaders shuns umbral, and throughout his quest line gets more and more captivated by it and goes insane. The Lost Berescu's catalyst is an umbral catalyst and was used by a former lampbearer, and does not mention them being a dark crusader, so whether they were or not, obviously it is not unheard of for a lampbearer at least to use umbral magic. If they weren't a dark crusader, then I think the opening cutscene just led me astray a little. However, the exacter calls us dark crusader upon exiting dialogue when we have done nothing to earn that, so it does pose a genuine question. Are all lampbearers dark crusaders? If so, then what is the answer to my question. Vanguard Barros of the dark crusaders has wither damage on his sword, yet he is not mentioned as a lampbearer, so something isn't adding up. Maybe I missed something early in the game when I wasn't paying as much attention idk.

Dark Crusaders do whatever is needed to fix the church, more or less. That includes all kinds of heresy. Like using umbral magic. Or taking an Umbral Lantern and sticking it on someone, marking them a dark crusader, and using them like a bludgeon to stomp down (on other people's) heresy.

Not all lampbearers are Dark Crusaders nor are all Dark Crusaders lampbearers but there is an overlap with anyone who happened to be assigned that lamp to serve the Exacters.

The literal simple answer to the original question is: Orius' light just isn't enough to get the job done and they're massive hypocrites. But they kind of at least own it.

[X YdoC]

Originally posted by Yian Yan:

Originally posted by X YdoC:

Dude I know it's basically necromancy lol that award was sarcastic. That is completely irrelevant to anything I am talking about. Look at the hallowed sentinels, they are clearly evil in what they do and how they go about things, yet are deemed holy and good. Rhogar is also evil. The line between good and evil is usually very blurred in these types of games. Everything is evil. If anything in this world, umbral should be the neutral category, not evil. It also takes both radiance and inferno to use, which backs that up. Regardless, I'm not here to debate what umbral is.

My question is what is the LORE ACCURATE reason as to why the UMBRAL LAMP, which is CREATED by Molhu, the last of the Nohuta, who were slaughtered for being heretics, is ACCEPTED and USED by the dark crusaders, as well as having wither damage on their weapons, which is umbral, yet UMBRAL MAGIC its self, is still SHUNNED and deemed as HERESY. Nobody wants to answer that question. If you don't know, then just don't answer, because I'm checking this forum for an answer to my question, not to go back and forth about surface level info.

Right now I'm leaning towards Lampbearers being their own thing entirely, and not exclusively dark crusaders, and are therefore basically "allowed" to use any means necessary to accomplish their goal, or they are still dark crusaders, yet are allowed to use any means because they currently wield the lamp. The exacter from the dark crusaders shuns umbral, and throughout his quest line gets more and more captivated by it and goes insane. The Lost Berescu's catalyst is an umbral catalyst and was used by a former lampbearer, and does not mention them being a dark crusader, so whether they were or not, obviously it is not unheard of for a lampbearer at least to use umbral magic. If they weren't a dark crusader, then I think the opening cutscene just led me astray a little. However, the exacter calls us dark crusader upon exiting dialogue when we have done nothing to earn that, so it does pose a genuine question. Are all lampbearers dark crusaders? If so, then what is the answer to my question. Vanguard Barros of the dark crusaders has wither damage on his sword, yet he is not mentioned as a lampbearer, so something isn't adding up. Maybe I missed something early in the game when I wasn't paying as much attention idk.

Dark Crusaders do whatever is needed to fix the church, more or less. That includes all kinds of heresy. Like using umbral magic. Or taking an Umbral Lantern and sticking it on someone, marking them a dark crusader, and using them like a bludgeon to stomp down (on other people's) heresy.

Not all lampbearers are Dark Crusaders nor are all Dark Crusaders lampbearers but there is an overlap with anyone who happened to be assigned that lamp to serve the Exacters.

The literal simple answer to the original question is: Orius' light just isn't enough to get the job done and they're massive hypocrites. But they kind of at least own it.

Yea that was basically what I had to start leaning towards, only thing that really made sense. Thanks for your input, that helps.

Originally posted by D. Flame:

It doesn’t seem like you get that the lamp is considered heresy as well.

They use heresy to fight heresy. The lamp is NOT considered an exception, but it is a tool that they USE ANYWAY. This is why they are called "Dark" and why they "shun the light and walk in the dark to protect the light".

Plus, you have to imagine there is a major difference between using a premade tool, and fully immersing yourself in the study and use of dark magics.

Yea, that's what I came to realize in my edit. Sorry if I sounded rude, I just felt like I was getting the same types of comments I get on every other post of someone trying to just dismiss what I am actually trying to say. I think there is also a bit of a disconnect when it comes to the dark crusaders and lampbearers that the game doesn't make as clear in the beginning. I think lampbearers are like the black sheep, sorry saps who were chosen for the role, and are basically "allowed" to use whatever means necessary to do the job no one wants to do. It's more like the lampbearer is the necessary evil, depending on who's looking at them. The game at the beginning makes it seem like dun dun dun Dark crusader, badass holy knights that wield death, but that's not the case. At least that is what I am coming to understand now.

[X YdoC]

Originally posted by Markytous:

In one of the stigmas I thought there is a conversation where Paladin Isaac is contemplating the sinfulness of his role in the grand scheme to Dunmire. Dunmire returns with essentially "is your sinfulness more dastardly than that of the rest of the world"? Dark Crusaders walk a path of isolation due to their method of exacting "justice".

In essence, we all as Lampbearers sort of show the moral grey that is the Umbral Lamp and its nature. Even gods themselves do not satiate the Lamp's hunger for souls. I think to answer your question, it IS heresy. It's just the heresy we have to use to make a change to fate in this realm.

Yea, I found that stigma to be very interesting. Coming from the guy who shuns umbral, yet gets so obsessed he goes insane, he's clearly trying to use and manipulate Isaac there. I also notice that the exacter is the only one who tries to give that false empowerment to the lampbearer, whereas everyone just kind of pities them. Maybe Pieta to an extent.