Winterberry / Byron and the Stomund questline.

[Lv]

First off, let me say I really have a good time with this game and it scratches a lot of Soulsborn itches for me.

However, these Byron and Stomund quest lines are amazingly stupid design, you literally open a door or go up an elevator too soon and you brick the quest line completely with no way to fix it or get the items / rings you need. @devs look at stuff like Bloodborne where you can still continue quests lines even past final area of the game. Stupid design and I despise that this forces NG+ on me. Love the game itself but f*ck this design. Some kind of patch to make these quests more available would be great, I am not saying make them too easy, but don't literally make NPC disappear after going through a door you "shouldn't have gone through" without using a guide.

[TruNaDe]

i nearly bricked all questline´s because i was going not the way like they wanted me too but how should i know this ....

[Lv]

Originally posted by dazza0511:

Originally posted by FrikadellenFreddy:

i nearly bricked all questline´s because i was going not the way like they wanted me too but how should i know this ....

Do what I did and look how to do all the questlines before you reach those areas.

Not a natural way of doing things, I even used a guide for some parts but if you aint reading 24/7 before moving forward in this game you brick questlines. And this is the problem. It forces NG+ which forces you to play the game again and it was designed this way because the devs want you playing for longer. Its BS and it sucks and needs to be removed from games like this.

[Krieger]

I agree, they also should add a quest journal, maybe something to point the the next objective too, something like a compass maybe, and when you are about to leave an area that would fail a quest a message should pop up telling you exactly what to do to finish the quest, maybe even teleport you to the objective.

[lbCake]

I knew I failed Byron's quest, I didn't know I was locking myself out of a merchant. Developers really need to change this quest structure, it's practically designed for failure.

[Cybermtl]

Originally posted by Krieger:

I agree, they also should add a quest journal, maybe something to point the the next objective too, something like a compass maybe, and when you are about to leave an area that would fail a quest a message should pop up telling you exactly what to do to finish the quest, maybe even teleport you to the objective.

Perfectly done :)

[Phantom Limb]

What's so bad about Stomund's quest? The only thing which comes to mind is the difficulty to find his final location. And it's not even that difficult in the first place because the game shows you that there is something more in there, go find a way to reach it.

[ZenDragon]

Originally posted by dazza0511:

Originally posted by FrikadellenFreddy:

i nearly bricked all questline´s because i was going not the way like they wanted me too but how should i know this ....

Do what I did and look how to do all the questlines before you reach those areas.

that's an idiotic expectation of the player from the dev. I have played all the souls games and they never DEMAND you to go online and research the quests before you do them. Hell, the reason DS2 is my favorite is because you can do so many of the quests in any order and I have not once had to go online to look anything up. This game though is just obtuse af! Zero meaningful clues. Quests are random it seems.

[ZenDragon]

Originally posted by Krieger:

I agree, they also should add a quest journal, maybe something to point the the next objective too, something like a compass maybe, and when you are about to leave an area that would fail a quest a message should pop up telling you exactly what to do to finish the quest, maybe even teleport you to the objective.

NO QUEST JOURNAL!! Just make NPCs give meaningful clues and if you talk to them again they continue to give you the same clue and stop hopping all over the damn place without reason.

[biosmonkey]

I completely agree here. Honestly I have no idea what is actually happening in the game (something about a bad guy I need to vanquish, cleansing beacons blah blah lol) - and all of the dialog and characters seem so random and disconnected (but in its defense I was also very confused with ER).

Combine this with the terrible way in which you can completely wreck a quest line by simply *moving to the wrong location too early*... it seems like the laziest choice they could have made while not remotely realizing that - despite their efforts to make it so - the game is not entirely linear, and the player can go to the wrong "trigger" place without realizing it.

The Byron/Winterberry is a perfect example. I managed to do that one correctly but only because I read it on fextralife. Honestly, how was I supposed to know that I needed to go back and talk to Byron to progress that quest ? The first thing that I did when I entered the Cistern was go right and take out the skinstealer guy ... and the lift is right there in front of you. *Oh look an elevator, I wonder where it goes...*

Just awful design. As someone else suggested, if you're going to pull stunts like this, you need a quest log that clearly says "go back and tell Byron about Winterberry before he takes matters into his own hands". If I had that clue, I could not necessarily fault the game if I decided to proceed anyway. But even then, is it wise to trigger these things on location access alone? I did not know where the Cistern lift was going to go.

[JustRez]

Originally posted by biosmonkey:

I completely agree here. Honestly I have no idea what is actually happening in the game (something about a bad guy I need to vanquish, cleansing beacons blah blah lol) - and all of the dialog and characters seem so random and disconnected (but in its defense I was also very confused with ER).

Combine this with the terrible way in which you can completely wreck a quest line by simply *moving to the wrong location too early*... it seems like the laziest choice they could have made while not remotely realizing that - despite their efforts to make it so - the game is not entirely linear, and the player can go to the wrong "trigger" place without realizing it.

The Byron/Winterberry is a perfect example. I managed to do that one correctly but only because I read it on fextralife. Honestly, how was I supposed to know that I needed to go back and talk to Byron to progress that quest ? The first thing that I did when I entered the Cistern was go right and take out the skinstealer guy ... and the lift is right there in front of you. *Oh look an elevator, I wonder where it goes...*

Just awful design. As someone else suggested, if you're going to pull stunts like this, you need a quest log that clearly says "go back and tell Byron about Winterberry before he takes matters into his own hands". If I had that clue, I could not necessarily fault the game if I decided to proceed anyway. But even then, is it wise to trigger these things on location access alone? I did not know where the Cistern lift was going to go.

Bro aint no way that you aint had the braincell when he tells you his pendant got stolen and its litteraly there in winterberrys store item list lmao

[ZenDragon]

Originally posted by JustRez:

Originally posted by biosmonkey:

I completely agree here. Honestly I have no idea what is actually happening in the game (something about a bad guy I need to vanquish, cleansing beacons blah blah lol) - and all of the dialog and characters seem so random and disconnected (but in its defense I was also very confused with ER).

Combine this with the terrible way in which you can completely wreck a quest line by simply *moving to the wrong location too early*... it seems like the laziest choice they could have made while not remotely realizing that - despite their efforts to make it so - the game is not entirely linear, and the player can go to the wrong "trigger" place without realizing it.

The Byron/Winterberry is a perfect example. I managed to do that one correctly but only because I read it on fextralife. Honestly, how was I supposed to know that I needed to go back and talk to Byron to progress that quest ? The first thing that I did when I entered the Cistern was go right and take out the skinstealer guy ... and the lift is right there in front of you. *Oh look an elevator, I wonder where it goes...*

Just awful design. As someone else suggested, if you're going to pull stunts like this, you need a quest log that clearly says "go back and tell Byron about Winterberry before he takes matters into his own hands". If I had that clue, I could not necessarily fault the game if I decided to proceed anyway. But even then, is it wise to trigger these things on location access alone? I did not know where the Cistern lift was going to go.

Bro aint no way that you aint had the braincell when he tells you his pendant got stolen and its litteraly there in winterberrys store item list lmao

He tells you that ONE TIME. A proper design would have him repeat that important information EVERY TIME you speak to him. See DS2 for good example of proper quest design that's both vague but does not require a journal.

NO JOURNAL, NO MAP, NO COMPASS! But have NPCs give meaningful repeated clues everytime you speak to them. Also stop moving them around and making them hide in random places that make no damn sense.

[biosmonkey]

Originally posted by JustRez:

Originally posted by biosmonkey:

I completely agree here. Honestly I have no idea what is actually happening in the game (something about a bad guy I need to vanquish, cleansing beacons blah blah lol) - and all of the dialog and characters seem so random and disconnected (but in its defense I was also very confused with ER).

Combine this with the terrible way in which you can completely wreck a quest line by simply *moving to the wrong location too early*... it seems like the laziest choice they could have made while not remotely realizing that - despite their efforts to make it so - the game is not entirely linear, and the player can go to the wrong "trigger" place without realizing it.

The Byron/Winterberry is a perfect example. I managed to do that one correctly but only because I read it on fextralife. Honestly, how was I supposed to know that I needed to go back and talk to Byron to progress that quest ? The first thing that I did when I entered the Cistern was go right and take out the skinstealer guy ... and the lift is right there in front of you. *Oh look an elevator, I wonder where it goes...*

Just awful design. As someone else suggested, if you're going to pull stunts like this, you need a quest log that clearly says "go back and tell Byron about Winterberry before he takes matters into his own hands". If I had that clue, I could not necessarily fault the game if I decided to proceed anyway. But even then, is it wise to trigger these things on location access alone? I did not know where the Cistern lift was going to go.

Bro aint no way that you aint had the braincell when he tells you his pendant got stolen and its litteraly there in winterberrys store item list lmao

I think you missed my point... bro.

**There is no way that the player can know that they must find Winterberry and then talk to Byron BEFORE taking the elevator**

When entering the cistern I happened to turn right and take out the miniboss, with the lift right behind it. I had no idea where it went, and if I'd taken it then the quest chain would've been wrecked.

My point is that *location* based triggers in quest chains are bad design - unless you are told that specifically, and optimally with the aid of a warning and/or quest log. Many games, for example, warn you about point-of-no-returns.

[LS95]

Okay, so, Skinflayer at the elevator is a boss, those generally denote progression going past their arena. Anytime I get to a boss arena, or a choice to do something like open a door or interact with the world in some way i can back out of, I go explore my unexplored areas I can reach or backtrack to a specific thing I couldn't use (without an "are you sure?" prompt) before without a key item. There's seedbeds and shortcuts basically every couple of turns through whatever area, there's not really any bad long runbacks through areas in LotF2023.

Honestly, the only bad questline I can think of is Stomund, and that's purely because triggering the Abbess that drops the other half of the thing he wants depends on being in Umbral BEFORE crossing a gate, not just holding up the Lantern to pass through. Of course, she's not an entirely missable, one chance and done thing, you can spawn her by resting and going back, but yeah, nobody is going to really transition that far back from the Belly even with the sparrow gargoyle imp waiting to ambush you just beyond the gate.

I do miss the old LotF Journal, honestly. It was neat but didn't really give you any proper locations, just who they are and what they want.

[Taddy Mason]

Originally posted by dazza0511:

Originally posted by FrikadellenFreddy:

i nearly bricked all questline´s because i was going not the way like they wanted me too but how should i know this ....

Do what I did and look how to do all the questlines before you reach those areas.

i think since the game already has a journal and it's calling that the maps as well, why not flesh out an actual in game journal for players to try and keep track of their quests in? it could also be weird and hard to read like the "maps" that are really just kinda pictures of landmarks you're supposed to recognize. put the clues in the journal too.

[mayhem523]

Originally posted by lbCake:

I knew I failed Byron's quest, I didn't know I was locking myself out of a merchant. Developers really need to change this quest structure, it's practically designed for failure.

I got her killed in my game too, but was still able to use her shop. All I had to do was join some rando's game that happened to be starting sunless skein and walk him through skein and depths in their entirety. When we got to winterberry I bought all her items, then after depths boss I made sure to take him back to Byron to progress her quest.

Or you could just ask to join someone's game that has access to her already.