Immortal Construct Feedback

[Nikola]

Hello all, recently pushed the nemesis style enemy in time for Halloween. I find this to be an exciting addition to the game that increases the intensity and variability between runs, but I understand its usually polarizing to have a mr x / nemesis type, so I want to make sure I'm listening to feedback and trying to get a discussion going. Nothing is set in stone at this point, so please share your feedback here and feel free to discuss what you think of the new enemy.

[ThatGuyKhi]

Hmm, well who is this mob for?

The fast players are fast and the slow players are slow, regardless of this mob. Just wondering where's the sweet spot on a timer to have the mob be a threat but not exhausting.

*The mob spawns quickly and the slow players feel rushed.
vs
*The mob spawns slowly but then everyone just ignores it which makes it's existence null.

If it's optional then it could be something for a speedrun leaderboard. I think it makes for a nice challenge option but not something every player would want interfering with the current gameplay.

I also wouldnt be upset if it was an optional Mr.X mob and also a mob that could spawn in the run to actually defeat. Either L4D Witch style or behind a door in a run like a miniboss arena.

[Hell_MINTH]

I'm relatively new to the game, and in general, I don't like the timer aspect that a nemesis like this introduces. One of the things that draws me to this game is character building, and to do that properly, I need some time to review the stats of equipment in the level during clean-up. That said, as currently implemented with infrequent spawns, it does add an element of fun.

One suggestion I think would make it MORE fun is to change the current mechanics around a bit: Make the nemesis vulnerable to attack, or at least stun (bad idea, but doable), but if you pick up the nemesis-related curse, it becomes invulnerable.

[Wyrtt]

Just a friendly reminder. ACTUAL Nemesis was tough boss that offered additional rewards if you choose to defeat him instead of running away.
It promted hit or run response in you.

Modern X and its clones fail to realise that. All it does for me is promts me to Run or press alt f4 in frustration.
In this game I found his size problematic. areas are small and connetced by even smaller archway. He just blocks your path. All you can do is employ cheesy kiting tactic.

Also how much is TOO LONG? I entered cave and swiftly spammed R2 to kill 5 enemies with my OP berserk sword. I spend maybe 30-60 second on that.

[King K.B]

While I get the idea, I don't think it's quite right for this game in this iteration.

It might be better to have a toggle as Khi said, or killable as MINTH said. You could even make it a secret boss that only spawns once certain criteria are met, but with a huge payoff - that gives people time to explore levels and prepare, but also a tempting target to aim for.

[Regrettably Sane]

New to the game
love it so far

really dislike invulnerable enemies. For me, the desire to overcome a challenge is a big part of why I play challenging games. And when the challenge is "invulnerable" and I don't really have any way to handle it except "run" is more annoying than anything.

Only saw it a couple of times in the game, so no real opinion on this particular variation so far

[Hoshi]

Originally posted by Wyrtt:

Just a friendly reminder. ACTUAL Nemesis was tough boss that offered additional rewards if you choose to defeat him instead of running away.
It promted hit or run response in you.

This is what every game that implements a pursuer enemy doesn't seem to realize. Nemesis could be killed, and you were rewarded tremendously for defeating him.

An enemy like this should require you to truly dawdle before showing up, almost deliberately so, it shouldn't be invulnerable, and it should offer unique -- and more importantly -- worthwhile rewards for managing to defeat it.

Other details of note were that Nemesis was a diverse and unpredictable enemy. Just when you get used to him clotheslining you from off-screen, he starts showing up with a rocket launcher. When you get used to juking the rockets, he starts showing up with the tentacles. And so on and so forth.

[Nikola]

Originally posted by Hoshi:

Originally posted by Wyrtt:

Just a friendly reminder. ACTUAL Nemesis was tough boss that offered additional rewards if you choose to defeat him instead of running away.
It promted hit or run response in you.

This is what every game that implements a pursuer enemy doesn't seem to realize. Nemesis could be killed, and you were rewarded tremendously for defeating him.

An enemy like this should require you to truly dawdle before showing up, almost deliberately so, it shouldn't be invulnerable, and it should offer unique -- and more importantly -- worthwhile rewards for managing to defeat it.

Other details of note were that Nemesis was a diverse and unpredictable enemy. Just when you get used to him clotheslining you from off-screen, he starts showing up with a rocket launcher. When you get used to juking the rockets, he starts showing up with the tentacles. And so on and so forth.

I am a little concerned that since the player can get so powerful in Mortal Sin (unlike the resident evil games), it would be too easy to out muscle him and make him non-threatening. Or in the case of the new player, they may think the only option is to fight him and die repeatedly whereas now its pretty clear you can't damage him. But I totally understand this perspective in general, giving a risk reward element for more play options rather than one option (to run). Perhaps there could be a middle ground where he can be damaged and brought to his knees once (dropping a reward), but then if you wait too long after that he will recover, go berserk and become unkillable as he is now.

I appreciate the feedback in this thread by the way, I am watching it closely.

[Hoshi]

Yeah, implementing this in a game with variably scaling power definitely seems like a challenge, but I think that ultimately enemies like this should only seem impossible to defeat. It should be a challenge for extremely skilled players, but all the same, not feel like a roadblock to the new or inexperienced.

It's a tough balancing act. If it sticks around as a permanent feature, I wish you luck in developing it. I like the idea, at the very least.

[Yogg]

Loving the game so far. I have recommended it to a couple friends already. However, this immortal construct takes more from the experience than it gives. i found myself doing a run with a Paladin and i basically could not stop to check gear towards the end and instead just either instantly sold the dropped item or even ignored it completely to ensure i could get to the exit in time. which honestly is a neat concept but the game is already difficult and having the player skip over gear to make sure the unkillable boss doesn't pop up doesn't help the experience at all.
Although, this is just my two cents and maybe that will change over time. With how things stand right now though, I can't say I'm a huge fan of this change.

[Nikola]

Originally posted by Yogg:

Loving the game so far. I have recommended it to a couple friends already. However, this immortal construct takes more from the experience than it gives. i found myself doing a run with a Paladin and i basically could not stop to check gear towards the end and instead just either instantly sold the dropped item or even ignored it completely to ensure i could get to the exit in time. which honestly is a neat concept but the game is already difficult and having the player skip over gear to make sure the unkillable boss doesn't pop up doesn't help the experience at all.
Although, this is just my two cents and maybe that will change over time. With how things stand right now though, I can't say I'm a huge fan of this change.

Thanks for the feedback! I did not make this clear in the patch notes, but he actually doesn't spawn every level (only 25% chance to spawn at all). So most of the time, you can take your time but you are rolling the dice a bit. That being said I'll be pushing some timing tweaks for him soon to make it a bit more forgiving on normal difficulty.

[Nikola]

I just hotfixed this so its tied to the Hunter's Mark curse for now to make it optional. I will likely reuse this enemy in the future though, perhaps as a fightable version for a difficult encounter. For now though, I don't feel the need to force it on people who don't want it, and those who take the curse will know what they are getting into and get a nice item level boost for their troubles.

https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/1494810/view/3708210847455028526

[Wistphil]

I have been following this game for a week and jumped at the chance to buy it on sale today. Well done on the game - I am enjoying it so far however as a new player I was slightly disheartened to read about this new addition.

I am learning the game and I feel I have to rush through each floor without being able to properly read the descriptions of all loot. I have been caught out by the Immortal Construct already and I really didn't feel like I was taking my time in the level.

I feel it is a feature that should only be on the higher difficulty level when players are very familiar with the items/systems and might not need to spend time reading the descriptions.

[Wistphil]

Originally posted by Nikola:

I just hotfixed this so its tied to the Hunter's Mark curse for now to make it optional. I will likely reuse this enemy in the future though, perhaps as a fightable version for a difficult encounter. For now though, I don't feel the need to force it on people who don't want it, and those who take the curse will know what they are getting into and get a nice item level boost for their troubles.

https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/1494810/view/3708210847455028526

I was typing my post above before I saw your hotfix. Wow, talk about a responsive developer! Thanks for changing this - I am looking forward to playing many more runs, now with a slightly less steep learning curve :)

[Reise]

First day play this game. I must say thank god Immortal Construct is still WIP. I'm frustrated to a point I come to steam discussion looking for what I missed. Don't get me wrong, the concept itself isn't bad, the problem is I have very little interaction with the mechanism. No way to delay or reset the timer, no meaningful interaction with Immortal Construct once it's summoned. I can jump right back into the game now lol.

[Wyrtt]

Originally posted by Nikola:

I just hotfixed this so its tied to the Hunter's Mark curse for now to make it optional. I will likely reuse this enemy in the future though, perhaps as a fightable version for a difficult encounter. For now though, I don't feel the need to force it on people who don't want it, and those who take the curse will know what they are getting into and get a nice item level boost for their troubles.

https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/1494810/view/3708210847455028526

Dont get discouraged by our feedback. You just need to thin about a better way to implement this kind of enemy. Idea itself is good.