Ice wall targeting is garbage

[DraskelClan]

So I actually like this game and wish I could give it a better review, but Ice wall targeting absolutely destroys some of the fun I could have had. The fact that you tied not one, but two achievements to a skill with targeting this bad speaks volumes to how little testing you did before making decisions. Every other complaint should be ignored until you fix the garbage that is ice wall. The complete brain dead idea to link two achievements to your worst design deserves a public apology aired on live tv during the super bowl. Thats the level of garbage it is.

[Cahalith]

Your post doesn't get into why you find ice wall targeting bad, but I assume it's for the same reason other users have voiced the same complaint.

This post might help you use that power more effectively for now.

[DraskelClan]

That post would help if I didnt despise the K+M controls and am playing with a controller. So many games have done Tie Down mechanics a thousand times better than this game. The problem with Ice Wall targeting is in the core design of ice wall. The fact that it has to make a block that then attaches to another block while controlling it in one contiguous movement is what makes it absolute trash and horrible design. If you were drawing a line then it created one block from that line it might work but as it stands it is a complete failure. Freedom Wars had better design on the Vita. Its honestly the one mechanic that absolutely infuriates me but you need it for so much that I want to get in a boxing ring and fight the designer that thought this was the right way to go. Maybe a concussion will rattle some better design out of their head. Or maybe they might actually look at other games and realize how bad the idea was.

[Gloop]

Skill issue

[Cahalith]

Origineel geplaatst door DraskelClan:

That post would help if I didnt despise the K+M controls and am playing with a controller.

Not sure why using a controller prevents you from using the info in that post, since ice wall works exactly the same on controller as it does on K+M.

But hey, I'm not gonna pretend like Eternal Strands doesn't have some issues. The ice wall controls have been mentioned by other users before and I won't pretend they're not a bit finicky.

But consider this: Other games may have more convenient tie-down mechanics. But ice wall isn't exclusively used to tie down opponents. That's certainly one use (and it works if you follow the guidelines in that post I linked), but you can also create barriers/cover, you can create outcrops to facilitate platforming, you can cool down fires, you can make armour brittle, you can shoot it in your enemy's face so they can't use breath attacks. So if, for example, the system worked by aiming at a point on the enemy and pressing the button, and then aiming at a point on the ground and pressing the button to make an entire "strand" of ice appear immediately to tie down opponents, many of these other uses would be hampered by that because it would make creating the ice slower. Imagine you're falling to your death and you need to create an outcrop on a wall to catch yourself (been in that situation a number of times). In that case, it's way easier and way more conventient for the spell to work as a spray. The same goes for spraying it in a Drake's face to prevent them from using their breath attack.

Perhaps there's some really obvious way the ice wall spell should control to facilitate ALL of these uses, which I'm missing right now. But I, for one, would prefer having to control the tie down effect manually instead of having the system be simplified to an extent where it makes tying down enemies easier, but makes every other use of the spell harder to control or slower.

BTW: The devs are pretty active in these forums and they've responded to a number of criticisms saying they'll look into adjusting their systems (like the limited inventory). So if you can think of a way the ice wall spell should control to help with tying down enemies without negatively impacting all its other uses, be sure to mention it here so they can consider implementing it.

[DraskelClan]

I never use Ice wall for cover. Have never needed to block the Drakes breath attack. Ive used it to create handholds and mini platforms for climbing but you can achieve the same thing with a standard point/block creation system and not need a spray, Ive never needed to use it to catch myself because the only time Ive fallen where that might be useful the games physics bugged so much that I got launched a thousand meters because an invisible pebble hit my pinky toe. I have used the brittle armor mechanic but I prefer Ice Mine for that.

Honestly the spray could be interesting if it wasn't so bad at working as intended. The spell literally works against itself in almost all instances. Even the slightest bit off on whatever axis and it starts building in a totally asinine direction that has nothing to do with where your reticle is pointing. Because each "block" has to exert its math on every other block in the vicinity. I don't disagree that the ideas could be interesting, but the spell needs modes of a sort. Instead of putting all those eggs in the Ice Wall (which is a terrible name for a spell intended to do so much that has nothing to do with a wall) they could have leaned into the idea that the Weavers are meant to be creative with their powers and unlock subskills derived from core skills. Player does XYZ and Ice Chain gets unlocked. Work the experimentation into the mechanic and the story. That they didnt do so is why the design is bad.

[Cahalith]

Like I said, I'm not gonna pretend that the game is perfect, and if you never use ice wall to its full potential, I understand how you may find the spell badly implemented for the one thing for which you do want to use it. We can agree to disagree here.

I also appreciate you explaining how you think the system could be improved, but I need to disagree strongly with this (if only to show the devs that there are different opinions here):

Origineel geplaatst door DraskelClan:

[...] the spell needs modes of a sort. Instead of putting all those eggs in the Ice Wall [...] they could have leaned into the idea that the Weavers are meant to be creative with their powers and unlock subskills derived from core skills. Player does XYZ and Ice Chain gets unlocked. Work the experimentation into the mechanic and the story. That they didnt do so is why the design is bad.

First of all, there are already people complaining about having to juggle a weapons wheel, a potions wheel and a spell wheel. Now imagine the sheer amount of whining that an additional 'modes' wheel would create.

Secondly, Eternal Strands uses systemic design to create exactly the sense of creativity you describe: You get a spell that creates ice blocks as a spray - and now it's up to you to figure out what to do with it, based on the material properties of the ice and the way in which the spell creates that ice. Do you have any idea how satisfying it felt when I realised you could use ice wall to force flying enemies to land by freezing their wing(s) against their bodies? That's certainly what I would consider using in-game systems creatively - and thus good systemic design. Now imagine the game instead went "congratulations, you've used the ice spell to freeze 20 enemies in place, so you now get to switch to wing-freezing mode". That's the exact opposite of creativity, because all you're doing is unlocking pre-determined sub skills.

Now, we could probably agree that it might be useful to be able to switch from, say, an ice spray effect to an ice linking effect - not unlocking specific in-game uses but rather only changing the shape in which the ice is created. But, again, that would require you to juggle all of these different modes in addition to switching spells in the middle of a fight, which would make the entire thing more of a hassle than just learning how to use the ice spray effectively.

[UltimePatate]

Something that should be explained better is that the Ice propagation got two different modes :
- if you aim for something where there's no ice, the Ice reticle will not collide with ice, helping to create a path or to accumulate ice under the reticle.
- if you aim for some existing ice, the reticle will collide with ice and work to connect ice to other ice chunks, or environment.

So a good way to create ice bridge is to first create a ice sole (bigger the sole is, stronger will be the anchor), then release the ice, then aim at the sole to then create a bridge...

[DraskelClan]

Who said anything about adding a wheel. Just make it so that you can choose which mode you take on the expedition. Make it so that Dahm equips your spells you want to have once the research has been done to unlock them. Have the research be collaborated with Laen and make Dahms atelier rank up to 5 with the rest and on the in between ranks he gains the ability to change the 1st ability of each type and the second ability of each type. Make a rank 6 for everybody that is only accessible at end game for him to equip the 3rd slot (add end game equipment, maybe give Laen the ability to help find lore bits, stuff like that. Sevs in between ranks could be adding bonuses to areas like +magic regen or +elem damage). Theres so many ways the systems could have been improved and interlinked. Maybe for Laen to help research a new magic use you have to have found the right Lore pieces before a quest triggers to do the research. Half the story is about the band working together to achieve what they do, yet they have been pigeonholed into doing their one thing without much input from anyone else unless its for a specific quest. Honestly, the more I discuss this the more I realize its not Ice wall that is my beef but rather that the devs just plain didn't go far enough to realize the potential they could have had with this setting.

[Cahalith]

So you don't want to be able to switch spell 'modes' during an excursion, and you'd rather want to select which 'modes' you want to take along and then be limited to these modes during excursions? I guess I have to disagree again, since I prefer having one spell that can be used in a multitude of creative ways as long as you know how. UltimePatate's post really is a good example of the thrill of figuring out how the systems work to utilise them creatively in-game (@UltimePatate: Thanks for pointing it out, BTW, I hadn't realised that's how ice propagates in the game).

When it comes to the other things you mentioned, I'd just like to point out that "more" isn't always better. As far as I'm concerned, a lot of what I'm reading here just boils down to having more things to unlock and more collectibles to find in order to unlock more things. Given that you already have to grind quite a bit if you want to maximise your equipment, I don't think I'd enjoy that very much. Especially not if all of it is just upgrading your base camp, when it's the creative use of gameplay systems during excursions which I think is really where the game shines and what it should focus on.

[Krufar]

Gotta love locking enemy's in place with grasp, and then firing some flaming arrows. So effective, so brutal, PG rating just increased :D

[DraskelClan]

I agree more isnt always better, but will definitely have to disagree with you in this games instance. This game is an example of not nearly enough. Even your example of equipment grind is, in my opinion, barely grindy. Particularly with how you get mats back when you swap them for your upgrades. This is about the least grindy system Ive ever seen get called grindy. However I don't find the Atelier games grindy so there's that. For this game, I just pulled my HQ mats off of current armor/weapon set and swapped them with low grade to get the mats for the new set I wanted to try. As for camp supplies to upgrade camp, that was almost unnecessary with how quick you can grab low grade mats in the beginning areas of Glintwood Hollow. The only part of the current game that feels grindy to me is finding all the codex entries per map. Heck, I still need 1 more for Glintwood and Ive crawled all over that map.

[Cahalith]

Like I said, I think the game does quite enough, certainly for a $40 indie title, and I think it should focus more on the systemic gameplay instead of adding more artificial collectibles and stat bonuses through busywork.

I've also not played the Atelier games, so I don't know where your pain theshold lies for grinding, but to me, there's quite enough grinding in Eternal Strands - IF, as I said, you want to fully maximise your equipment (it's not really that grindy if you're fine with using mostly 4 star materials).

To put some numbers on that, my current level 4 equipment loadout cost me the following 5 star materials:
51x Sovereign Etrium
67x Drake Scales
22x Cinder Infused Linen
4x Iron Leather
5x Iceclaw Full Grain
39x Glasstail Fur
4x Stennic

If we assume (tempered) bosses drop 5x of these materials on average, that means I've so far defeated at least:
10 Arks of the Stricken Earth
13 Ashpeak Drakes
5 Arks of the Living Flame
1 Rehnland Sledgewyrm
1 Highland Iceclaw
8 Brennig Glasstails
1 Ark of the Winter Tide

That's assuming I haven't gotten any Stennic from tempering the ore that's lying around, to be sure, but it's also assuming I knew about tempering bosses from the start (which I definitely didn't), so I think it evens out.

Keep in mind this is with all my equipment only at level 4, and I also have three slots which are currently filled with 51x 4 star leathers, which I'll want to exchange for 5 star leathers at some point. And whenever I've wanted to use different weapons and armour, I just dismantle my old stuff, so the numbers above really are total numbers just for the equipment set I'm currently using. And to me, that's grindy enough, IF you want to go all 5 star materials (which I think you probably won't need on normal difficulty).

[DraskelClan]

To get an idea of the threshold imagine a game where the entirety of the gameplay, narrative, and aesthetic is centered around a crafting system. Not that there is a crafting system but that the crafting system is WHY the game exists. One that the interaction of the materials used to craft with can vastly alter the end product at a functional level even when making the same item. You could multiply those numbers by 100 and you wouldn't be close to scratching the surface of the possibilities in Ateliers various crafting systems disguised as games. Add in the fact that you have multiple ways to harvest materials all of which alter the materials you get from harvesting the same node and I think you can get the picture. This game tempering system is actually interesting to me because its reminds me of Ateliers harvesting system. I was tempering way before I got the tutorial tip for it (I figured out in the demo that burning the steel nodes gave me blue drops instead of green and grey) so I immediately started trying out freezing and burning on everything from leaves to bosses.