Cavalry movement type> infantry movement type

[abaoabao2010]

Hit and run is OP.

It has always been OP in the players hands, but AI can't cry imba so nobody cared.

Now that AI has it, as a player I feel obliged to cry imba.

Especially as the levels were balanced around the AI not using hit and run, and haven't been rebalanced since, so sometimes you get a hard level followed by a much easier level as the former had a lot of cavalry.

Flying movement type isn't as good as hit and run either, but it's close.

Infantry, on the other hand, has nothing. Less movement, no hit and run, and subject to terrain all the same. In most games it's because infantry are cheaper, but it really isn't the case here. Give it some advantage over the other two types, i.e. 20% reduced damage taken on defense or something like that.

Thematically, they should be able to "hold the line" better.

Edit: In case it wasn't clear, this is about MOVEMENT TYPE, not specific units. In that even if you want a few swordmasters/sentinels/whatever, you would most likely still try to fit 5 horses in that squad.

[Overlord]

Messaggio originale di Thorak:

I'd suggest a few ways I think will be balance it out:
1) Let the tech that gives +25 HP (Material Science/Advanced Material science?) to both heavy inf and heavy cavalry only give bonus to heavy infantry, alternatively give it a higher bonus only for heavy infantry.
2) Increase movement penalty for cavalry squads on anything that isn't plain terrain, like forests, marsh, hills and so on.
3) Make horses more expensive, instead of trading equally with gems maybe make horses cost 2 gems instead.

That's too much too, just allow infantry (both light and heavy) to receive damage mitigation bonuses from terrain other than open ground, this would solve the issue IMO. Maybe also a dmg mitigation debuff for cav attacking and defending in woods and swamps too.

[Thorak]

Messaggio originale di Overlord:

Messaggio originale di Thorak:

I'd suggest a few ways I think will be balance it out:
1) Let the tech that gives +25 HP (Material Science/Advanced Material science?) to both heavy inf and heavy cavalry only give bonus to heavy infantry, alternatively give it a higher bonus only for heavy infantry.
2) Increase movement penalty for cavalry squads on anything that isn't plain terrain, like forests, marsh, hills and so on.
3) Make horses more expensive, instead of trading equally with gems maybe make horses cost 2 gems instead.

That's too much too, just allow infantry (both light and heavy) to receive damage mitigation bonuses from terrain other than open ground, this would solve the issue IMO. Maybe also a dmg mitigation debuff for cav attacking and defending in woods and swamps too.

Yeah, doing all three will be too much, I was thinking one of them. But giving cavalry a higher movement penalty in rough terrain together with a defence buff for inf in rough terrain and not allowing cavalry to charge in rough terrain either might be a good balance?

[abaoabao2010]

I say give them a more clearly defined role.

Damage mitigation bonus for infantry when on defense only, instead of it always being active. Also lower their threat rating. Having less movement means they're more likely to fight defensively even if you wish to do anything else, so might as well make their identity around that.

For cavalry, their current offense/mobility feels just right imo. I'd say just reduce horse unit's hp to be more in line with infantry. This way making good use of their mobility to avoid retaliation becomes much more important, but they'll still be just as OP when you manage to do it right.

Note that enemy units will also get these changes, so both nerfing cavalry charge and buffing infantry defense will probably be too much.

[Thorak]

Having played a fresh warlord+permadeath+ironman (no reloads for mistakes) game I don't think there really is any need for changes.

I personally feel the game got a bit easier thanks to the fact that it is now possible to get stronger units earlier thanks to more missions available. The added cavalry movement of the opponent is not really an issue if you use a "tank squad" to absorb the attacks and make sure the tank squad is not a cavalry one but has a full front row of guardians with defensive artifacts. Alternatively ensure only 1 cavalry can hit your units and the left will follow and be put within range of your own squads. Alternatively use a "fodder squad" if yo can't tank the cavalry.

Also, having the possibility to shuffle my main tank to the front is very nice as well. Using my play style I would say cavalry fills one role and heavy inf tank squads fills another role.

I still don't see the need for either mages or light inf. I don't feel the need to have a stronger offence, but I often feel the need to have a stronger defense and in this case the mage is very bad due to not acting until the enemy has taken both actions. A light inf is slightly better as it can help take out more enemies before the second punch though.

Also regarding Valkyries, I feel they are generally sub optimal. They heal worse than a dedicated healer and hits worse than a dedicated tank/dps. I use 1 in most squads but only thanks to the tech that provides -25% damage to healers if it contains a paladdin or a valkyrie and in this case the valkyrie also provides a new type of unit for +3 weapon for the whole squad. The valkyrie is also rather expensive resource wise.

[Overlord]

Messaggio originale di Thorak:

Having played a fresh warlord+permadeath+ironman (no reloads for mistakes) game I don't think there really is any need for changes.

I personally feel the game got a bit easier thanks to the fact that it is now possible to get stronger units earlier thanks to more missions available. The added cavalry movement of the opponent is not really an issue if you use a "tank squad" to absorb the attacks and make sure the tank squad is not a cavalry one but has a full front row of guardians with defensive artifacts. Alternatively ensure only 1 cavalry can hit your units and the left will follow and be put within range of your own squads. Alternatively use a "fodder squad" if yo can't tank the cavalry.

Also, having the possibility to shuffle my main tank to the front is very nice as well. Using my play style I would say cavalry fills one role and heavy inf tank squads fills another role.

I still don't see the need for either mages or light inf. I don't feel the need to have a stronger offence, but I often feel the need to have a stronger defense and in this case the mage is very bad due to not acting until the enemy has taken both actions. A light inf is slightly better as it can help take out more enemies before the second punch though.

Also regarding Valkyries, I feel they are generally sub optimal. They heal worse than a dedicated healer and hits worse than a dedicated tank/dps. I use 1 in most squads but only thanks to the tech that provides -25% damage to healers if it contains a paladin or a valkyrie and in this case the valkyrie also provides a new type of unit for +3 weapon for the whole squad. The valkyrie is also rather expensive resource wise.

That's the fun of the game, it allows for a lot of build diversity. I'm pushing back on the light inf and mages though. They suck early on, but mid and late game they'll be your primary source of DMG. While early on your focus is on survivability, later on you can basically build heavy infantry-mage tercios that simply one-tap enemy squads or damages them to the point that they do very little in retaliation to you. Also, lights make for better shock infantry than heavies once you're able to start cranking out assassin, ranger, samurai (heavies, but they syngergize very well with lights due to their great base SKL) and swordmaster mixed squads. They also one tap most threats when fighting in rough terrain, and you can make semi-reliable dodge tank frontlines with rangers if you stack dodge artifacts and min-max SKL growth/gold plate them. You can also build disarm squads that basically stunlock anything they fight and take no DMG.

[Hand of Gabriel]

There's so much to unpack here but I think there's a lot of folks undervaluing the trait Guardian and shuffling of infantry stacks. Needless to say that a lot of people have pointed out how squad diversity is really strong; 100% cavalry works great but it's not necessarily as effective as having some infantry squads thrown in there who can do similar jobs but better. Sometimes it isn't about movement as much as it is about stats and when you get chain-charged it's about stats.

[Good Night Owl]

I might be missing your point. Obviously it's better movement type, but what matters is does it make the squad better overall?

Personally, I'm not sure because I've never tried a whole army of that movement type. I'm sure it works, but I wouldn't want it because I don't think movement type is the 'End all be all' for the entire army. I'd rather those 5 cavalry units that I have in my squad be replaced with other units better fitting the role of the squad.

That being said, If everyone in my army WAS of that movement type, it would save me from having to use Diana to constantly pull most of the weight as a defender at a choke point. Seriously, every chapter she does most of the work.

[Overlord]

Messaggio originale di Hand of Gabriel:

There's so much to unpack here but I think there's a lot of folks undervaluing the trait Guardian and shuffling of infantry stacks. Needless to say that a lot of people have pointed out how squad diversity is really strong; 100% cavalry works great but it's not necessarily as effective as having some infantry squads thrown in there who can do similar jobs but better. Sometimes it isn't about movement as much as it is about stats and when you get chain-charged it's about stats.

While I agree with your point, In my experience even when I try to minmax for survivability current light and heavy infantry comes up short in the noted area relative to what you can do when you focus on mobility and firepower.

This is hilarious IMO because although the game is in a pre-modern high fantasy setting it basically plays like contemporary maneuver combat. Current balance, especially at higher difficulties is geared towards giving victory to whoever can get the first hit and deny the other side their ability to do so or counterattack. It's not a bad system, I just wish defensive squads were more viable, and missions had situations where it's necessary to employ proper defense, both positional and maneuver.

[Hand of Gabriel]

I've only ever played this game with minimum 2 ultra heavy tank infantry squads; on Ludi they were a lynchpin of my army. I'm surprised to hear people are having a hard time favoring them. In all my experience I've never had them fail to be super effective. The least effective squads have always been Light Infantry for me but that's not because they're bad, it's because I don't need more than 2 of them and SoW tends to hand you 4-5 light squads.

[farhorizon]

Messaggio originale di Hand of Gabriel:

I've only ever played this game with minimum 2 ultra heavy tank infantry squads; on Ludi they were a lynchpin of my army.

What are you using for your tank squads?

I'm only on chapter 10, but I find the oracle is helping tank quite a bit, particularly with MC as cleric so she can heal and attack. Building a squad with the counterattack skill in the legends 2 treasure chest is also pretty amusing early on.

[Shoobee-Doowap-Baoh]

sounds like a skill issue tbh

[Hand of Gabriel]

MC is a good candidate; they either become full tank or a magic-death-squad.

Sybil is a top tier choice for me; Guardian Impulse is broken AF. Later in the game she becomes the strongest version of that troop you can hope to achieve.

The final squad is generally a pub squad; anyone with Soldier Captain will do.

All squads are largely composed of pallies, sorcs, centurions, zweis, templar, and oracle.

[BB Mouse]

Messaggio originale di Hand of Gabriel:

MC is a good candidate; they either become full tank or a magic-death-squad.

Sybil is a top tier choice for me; Guardian Impulse is broken AF. Later in the game she becomes the strongest version of that troop you can hope to achieve.

The final squad is generally a pub squad; anyone with Soldier Captain will do.

All squads are largely composed of pallies, sorcs, centurions, zweis, templar, and oracle.

I knew Sybil is gonna be OP because of Guardian Impulse. I give her a dark affinity asap, and a few magic stat boost so she can class change to Dark Templar XD. I hope she gets what she wants at the end 'cause she is sad not able to become a Dark Knight... Paladin I mean when I am at ch 11. Her personality/story feels like a perfect candidate as a dark knight XD.