Alpha Striking in turn based strategy games

[Rak]

First of all I'm loving the game, this is not an attack just an observation from a player who loves these types of games.

In my experience Alpha strikes in turn based games (where each side goes their entire turn) tends to be either super easy or extremely difficult. Cause how the action economy works, its either you obliterate said enemy "pack" or "pod" or whatever you want to call it, that the following enemy counter attack becomes irrelevant (not enough damage/units) or enemy completely destroys you cause of the same thing, enemy destroys so much of your units in a single turn you better just restart. Games with these kind of systems also tends to become "puzzle" games rather than tactical/strategy.

I personally think (my opinion) that some sort of initiative system works better, instead of your units going all at once some of your units will either go first or last depends on the turn order. I'd also like to note that each unit should only be able to act once in a single turn with the exception of special abilities, cause some games with an initiative system you can stack so much speed or initiative that said unit can have multiple actions in a single turn which is completely broken.

Now I know the game is done, the systems are already in place just throwing this out in the hopes that in the sequel you guys would consider this, will make the game more tactical instead of it becoming a puzzle game. I would love to see the Saga continue cheers!

[Throwaway Name]

Agreed, having ALL of my squads go first before the enemy moves AND having every unit in my squad attack first when it’s my turn makes the game a puzzle. Being on the offensive like that is just too good.

[Kman]

I thought similar, have a speed or agility stat decide attack order for BOTH sides. Say the attacking team would get an X amount of a speed boost added to their first turn to give them some advantage, but higher speed units on the defending team could act before the slower ones on the attacking team.
Some units like pikemen and the like, should get first strike hit when a mounted unit comes against them, instead of increased damage, they could take out a weakend mounted unit before it even does any damage.

[Rak]

Some games on the top of my head with a good initiative system in place, Xcom Chimera Squad, Battle brothers, Triangle Strategy especially the latter has got a good balance assuming you don’t over level, not too casual not too hardcore either.

[Tomos]

The RPG mechanics and first strike do turn this stratregy/rpg into more of a puzzle game. Even the RNG of the shop doesn't really matter. Indie devs tend to lack industry experience when it comes to things like this, but I hope they take this as a learning opportunity on game design.

[Iguana-on-a-stick]

I personally really like the "puzzle" aspect where you have to plan out your turn so as to eliminate all possibility of a counter-attack.

Initiative systems can work and be fun, sure, but I don't think every game should have them. Particularly with the sheer number of units in this game (20-21 by the end and even more on the enemy side) it'd be a pain to keep track of. I think initiative systems work better in games with more limited numbers of units.

A different thread suggested instead they could adjust the attack order in squad-to-squad combat, so that even if it is your turn it's not certain you will get to strike first.

They suggested having the attack order depend on troop types: i.e. cavalry strike before archers, archers strike before melee infantry, melee before mages, mages before artillery. (or something like that, the specifics would be subject to balancing. You could even have pike/spear infantry going before sword infantry, depending on how much detail you want.)

A system like that would blunt the impact of alpha-strikes somewhat without completely changing the turn system. (For better or worse, it's worse if you WANT to change the whole turn system of course. :-) )

[Juravis]

The devs were pretty clear on stream that everything about this mechanic is by design, so it's part of the core philosophy and will not change. I would personally have loved a toggle option in menus where you would have individual units roll INI based on SKL, but it's not the way it's built.

[davea]

If you don't like alpha strike you definitely wouldn't like Hard West 2. The Bravado system means your team of 4 goes first, and with proper planning, you can kill upwards of a dozen enemies. Once you get used to that, it's great, and really cinematic.

[Simon]

Initiative based on speed can work, it's been done in games like FFT or Tactics Ogre, but team turns also work just as well in titles like Fire Emblem or Front Mission.

I don't think one is better than the other, or is in any way a question of dev "inexperience", it's just personal preference.

[nilloc93]

this is very much an issue in this game, especially with light infantry already being offensive oriented. I'm on chapter 21e right now and the enemy light infantry just squad wipe me on their turn, then I annihilate them on mine because its swamp fighting so every unit gets ambush and first strike on their turn. It kind of defeats the point of heavy infantry or squads with many healers because T3 light infantry can alpha strike anything to death.
I feel like this is compounded for the player since you're on a time limit while the AI isn't so it will sit just out of attack range waiting for the player to walk into it so that the AI gets first strike.

I feel like there should be some option to protect squads from alpha strikes, I get that the devs don't want an initiative system. Perhaps something such as defense boosts if they don't use their entire movement and don't act at end turn, differentiate between archers and light infantry then make lights unable to be ambushed.

[Horrible Marksman]

Personally, I would say both systems have merit, but I like the current system for this type of game. Generally, hero units aside, the idea of this game leans toward a more large scale war approach. Each side attacking in concert tends to add to that coordinated combat formation aesthetic. If each unit were to base its attack on initiative then it would have a more individualized and more intimate level of control, but also feel smaller scale and make all parts of the whole feel more separate. It would basically feel like less of a cohesive unit. All of that is, of course, subjective and is more about the feel of the combat than the mechanics.

Mechanically though, the game is fairly easy and that is, in part, due to the simple nature of exploiting positioning and turn order. I recall in my play through, later in my run, I bought the item that had me attack first on defense. The power inherent in that bonus in this particular type of system is insane. Is it good or bad to grant that much power based just on turn order? Hard to say. I do wish there were more things that could influence it. In this game, defending is--outside of exploiting terrain and dodge--usually the weakest option available. Offense is defense. I think it would have been nice to have particular formations that can be built to specialize in defense, which essentially work like ambush in reverse. When defending in particular terrain you get your two attacks and they get one or something such. It would at least make defense less of a worst case choice and more of a tactical option.

That said, this game uses very simple mechanics and that's part of its charm I think. Initiative would add more personalized control, but realistically, most games with initiative tend to devolve into armies of blitz formations anyway. It would basically be a more convoluted way to reach the same result. *shrug*

[applejuck]

I think, the problem is that the amount of damage in one battle is too high in this game. In Ogre Battle, units could not be killed so easily, and can retaliate.

[Reianor]

Pal, yer school table called, it suspects you of cheating on the chair with a high horse. 'T was really hard hiding this thread from it. You might wanna spend more time with 'em 'fore yer 'xposed.

Seriously though, you treat developers as newbies that need your advice for the sequel, yet your own view is so... limited.

Not seeing a solid enough argument here as to what exactly is wrong with it “being a puzzle”.
I dunno how you could have failed to notice, but all you did was describe a typical alpha strike gameplay and then just arbitrarily declare it bad.

By your logic a game where an AI enemy is more likely to counteract is somehow objectively better. How? All this does is turn a puzzle into a slugfest. And you haven't said a single word about how this slugfest is any better.

In fact in my experience it's mostly worse. They survive your attack, retaliate, you survive their retaliation, now you attack, back and forth, yada yada it starts as tactic but it turns into a bar brawl before you can finish yawning. Especially if it's mostly melee because it just turns into units getting pummelled roughly in the same order as they get into each-other's walking range.

'Sides, all you get out of initiative system is the simplified version of the exact same predicament. Turn based combat is all about taking units out before they can take you out. Initiative just takes the puzzle out of it but it doesn't give anything better in return. Most of the time you either get an obvious “ok, I can take this dude out before he moves” or “nope can't take anyone out before they move” actual decisions that make your brain work for them are few and far in between.

X-com been capitalizing on alpa strike gameplay and it's been going swimmingly, up until Chimera which was garbage. Granted, the abandonment of AS was not the only thing that made it garbage but it definitely was one of them.

Yes, you avoid most or all of the counter-attack if you wipe the pack.
Yes, you'll pay dearly and probably lose if you don't.
And that's how it's played, and how a lot of people like it.

You're free to like what you like but that doesn't give you the right to act like what you don't like is inherently inferior.

You've walked into a conservatory and told the pianist he should consider dancing to improve his performance. Dunno if it's funny or just plain rude.