Denuvo Master Thread

[Daarkarr0w]

Hey everyone,

We understand the concern of some members of the community regarding Denuvo. This is why we have created this thread to share our official answer and for you to discuss the topic.

Please keep the discussion about this topic on this thread, to keep the rest of the Steam forums for other conversations. Any new thread regarding the topic will be merged into this "master" thread. It will be easier to follow the discussion, not only for you but for us to keep an eye on the topic.

We wanted to start this thread with the official answer.

Originally posted by Astamarr:

Hello Everyone,
I’m Astamarr, the developer responsible for the task of integrating Denuvo DRM to ENDLESS Dungeon. I'll try to answer your concerns about the Denuvo DRM, and what it means to install a game that contains it.

Let me say that I'm first and foremost a player, just like you. I've faced numerous disastrous DRMs implementations during the years, and i know that it can cause a great deal of frustration. With that in mind, I'll try to be as clear and honest as possible in the following statement.

1) First of all, it's important to make a distinction between Denuvo anti-cheat and Denuvo DRM.

Denuvo Anti-Cheat is a software installed on your computer. Every anti-cheat on the market operates like this. They're basically just like antiviruses, scanning your computer hardware and software and doing... stuff to ensure that you're playing fairly.
TED doesn't require this anti-cheat system, or any other one. No third-party software will be installed on your computer.

What we're using in the game is the Denuvo "DRM" solution. It's just some verifications made within the game code. These are basically the same (but more protected) checks that games makes when installed with Steam/Epic/Your favorite store to ensure you did indeed buy the game.

Please note that this doesn't require you to be online at all times, or even for the Denuvo server to be online. Once this check is made, you'll be able to play offline.

2) The second main concern about these DRMs are performances issues. Theses checks can indeed have a great impact on performance. It's pretty easy to understand: if the checks are triggered every time the player makes a basic action (like, for example, moving the character), it'll spam requests non-stop and it'll be disastrous.
On the other hand, if we barely do any checks at all, it'll be pretty easy for hackers to crack the DRM and the whole process will be worthless.

Of course, there is a balance to find here: more checks means a more secure game, but a greater impact on performance.

At Amplitude, we're doing everything necessary to find the perfect balance to have a decently protected game, and to intelligently place requests so that they do not impact performance. This requires time, which is why we are already tackling it now.

We have efficient tools to monitor performance closely, and we will put every effort until release (and after if needed!) to ensure that. Regardless of how things change in the market we will always make sure that our players have access to the game that they have bought.

To summarize, let's say this: we will try our best to avoid that the game gets hacked at release -- because we put a lot of hard work into our games, and we do have bills to pay. We will never compromise on the quality of game, the experience, and the privacy of our players for it.

Please keep the conversation civil and don't enter into personal attacks.

[Engels78]

Originally posted by nolghan:

Originally posted by Grinnar:

Hades.

Well Hades is missing the tower defence and multiplayer part, so not in the least comparable.

But it's the same genre! So hell it's comparable.

[Grinnar]

Originally posted by nolghan:

Well Hades is missing the tower defence and multiplayer part, so not in the least comparable.

Keep moving them goal posts. Maybe you'll make a point some day.

[nolghan]

Originally posted by Engels78:

Originally posted by nolghan:

Well Hades is missing the tower defence and multiplayer part, so not in the least comparable.

But it's the same genre! So hell it's comparable.

Are we comparing by viewing angle? Then we can compare it to command and conquer or Ultima Online...

[nolghan]

Originally posted by Grinnar:

Originally posted by nolghan:

Well Hades is missing the tower defence and multiplayer part, so not in the least comparable.

Keep moving them goal posts. Maybe you'll make a point some day.

I can unsterstand why gaming company put DRM on their games. It's not new and it has been there since the beginning of gaming. So we will see how bad it is and see if they remove it when it really impacts performance.
Not sure if any of the people complaining here did play the game, but it's awsome. And if I compare it with the Beta of Diablo 4 it's 10 times better. Can't wait to play the game when it's done.
If people keep overreacting because of bs like this and stop buying from smaller gaming companies, the only people winning will be the ones that came up with the idea for micro transactions.

[Wazii]

Originally posted by nolghan:

Keep moving them goal posts. Maybe you'll make a point some day.

I can unsterstand why gaming company put DRM on their games. It's not new and it has been there since the beginning of gaming. So we will see how bad it is and see if they remove it when it really impacts performance.
[/quote]
To be fair, DRM used to be a required key to login to the multiplayer server and a sticker saying please don't pirate. for PC gaming at the very beginning. Login keys are still required (called CD keys) today.
However, Things like sony shenanigans like making rootkits and securom have been a big party of anti piracy history and faced equal flak as the denuvo does (mostly because it the same shady company).

IT does a lot more then just hinder performance and adds bugs, it can force online requirement for single player, it scans your computer and collect/transmits data and makes a unique fingerprint based on that data. Then when you change too many things on the computer and consumes more of your limited installs. To be honest this mostly effect game reviewers who use a lot of different hardware or streamers. It also radios home frequently so if the server crashes you can't play anymore.

Originally posted by nolghan:

If people keep overreacting because of bs like this and stop buying from smaller gaming companies, the only people winning will be the ones that came up with the idea for micro transactions.

This is untrue. small companies like rimworld who sells the game on steam without using Steam DRM are doing just fine. Same for factorio where you can login to their website and download the DRM free copy. Or any game sold on GOG, many of whom are also sold on steam with Steam DRM despite not having any drm on GOG.


EDIT: I think I fixed my quoting...

[lukaself]

Originally posted by nolghan:

If people keep overreacting because of bs like this and stop buying from smaller gaming companies, the only people winning will be the ones that came up with the idea for micro transactions.

I think you got it backwards, people buy from small companies exactly because they don't pull stuff like this. Amplitude used to release DRM-free games... It's only ever since they've been bought by the gaming giant SEGA that they've started pushing for questionable business practices and their long-time fanbase has continually had to push back to preserve Amplitude's reputation and identity.

As Wazii mentioned, many indie companies succeeded financially without having to upset the delicate balance between customer expectations and the company's bottom line.

It's understandable that you're excited to play the game and enjoyed it during the beta phase. However, it's important to consider the concerns of other users who may have had negative experiences with Denuvo or who are opposed to its use on principle.

Regarding the issue of overreacting, consumers should have a voice and express their concerns about practices they deem unfair or harmful. This could lead to industry changes that benefit everyone, including smaller gaming companies that may be more responsive to customer feedback.

Microtransactions are a separate issue that also deserves scrutiny and discussion. Ultimately, the best way to support the gaming industry is to make informed purchasing decisions and support companies that prioritize user experience and fair business practices.

[Zensuu]

100%

[Zensuu]

For real, they should learn from their mistakes. F*** off with this garbage DRM.

[Grinnar]

I remember when companies put two wheel cards in a thing to make sure you didn't pirate their games.

They didn't work out so well either.

[Ska_Hansen]

sega its the publisher, this is the case why this game get denuvo, that's not the decision from the developer.

[Grinnar]

Does the GOG version have Denuvo?

[Wazii]

Originally posted by Grinnar:

Does the GOG version have Denuvo?

If it would be, then probably not.GOG is pretty much all games DRM free... But I don't see it on GOG only their older game dungeon of the endless, not endless dungeon.

[lukaself]

Originally posted by Ska_Hansen:

sega its the publisher, this is the case why this game get denuvo, that's not the decision from the developer.

The situation with their previous game, Humankind, showed that they have some leeway in the decision-making process.

[Grinnar]

Originally posted by Wazii:

If it would be, then probably not.GOG is pretty much all games DRM free... But I don't see it on GOG only their older game dungeon of the endless, not endless dungeon.

I see it as "Coming soon" since I don't think they do early access games.

[nolghan]

Originally posted by lukaself:

Originally posted by nolghan:

If people keep overreacting because of bs like this and stop buying from smaller gaming companies, the only people winning will be the ones that came up with the idea for micro transactions.

I think you got it backwards, people buy from small companies exactly because they don't pull stuff like this. Amplitude used to release DRM-free games... It's only ever since they've been bought by the gaming giant SEGA that they've started pushing for questionable business practices and their long-time fanbase has continually had to push back to preserve Amplitude's reputation and identity.

As Wazii mentioned, many indie companies succeeded financially without having to upset the delicate balance between customer expectations and the company's bottom line.

It's understandable that you're excited to play the game and enjoyed it during the beta phase. However, it's important to consider the concerns of other users who may have had negative experiences with Denuvo or who are opposed to its use on principle.

Regarding the issue of overreacting, consumers should have a voice and express their concerns about practices they deem unfair or harmful. This could lead to industry changes that benefit everyone, including smaller gaming companies that may be more responsive to customer feedback.

Microtransactions are a separate issue that also deserves scrutiny and discussion. Ultimately, the best way to support the gaming industry is to make informed purchasing decisions and support companies that prioritize user experience and fair business practices. :clickbutton:

Thanks for this polite, diplomatic and insightfull reply.

Personaly I did not care for DRM in games since I got a stable income 15 years ago. I have never expirienced any issues that could be traced back to DRM and I understand that people are protective of their private information. Although working in IT for almost 20 years I'm sure that most people complaining about data mining from DRM are only interested in the subject when it suits their argument but are willing to share in arm and a leg with google, apple and MS just to save some money/time or to get that cool new feature.
In my opinion same goes for performce problems and bugs regarding DRM, when it actually is a layer 8 problem.
Or I'm just getting old and just wanna play a decent game once in a while.