Honestly... Engineers... My thoughts.

[»ƲßƐƦ«]

Engineers should not be behind a tech research tree, especially TIER 3!??!?! They are a basic unit to founding cities. In most 4x deep strategy games, founding cities is PARAMOUNT to early expansion and control. Not being able to do this early on is a massive handicap. Why can AI found 2 cities within 10 turns and player can't? It seems silly to wall off a basic starter unit behind a T3 tech tree. Other than that, the UI is a bit of a learning curve but the game seems pretty cool. I especially like the lore, art, and the story being weaved.

[forumcrybaby]

nah they are fine. It doesn't take a million years to research them. You don't need city #2 immediately. The Emu mind cant even make more cities.
They provide good buffs and heals to mechanical units so there is that why you cant just spam them from turn one.

the neutral AI factions start out with 2 cities btw. The chief, ZEPHON and Achorite. The playables ones do not.

[»ƲßƐƦ«]

Originally posted by biofail:

nah they are fine. It doesn't take a million years to research them. You don't need city #2 immediately. The Emu mind cant even make more cities.
They provide good buffs and heals to mechanical units so there is that why you cant just spam them from turn one.

the neutral AI factions start out with 2 cities btw. The chief, ZEPHON and Achorite. The playables ones do not.

yeah no... single city leaders are a whole other thing and have their own buffs to counter that. engineers have 'op' uses besides founding cities; sure fine then put those uses behind the tech tree. Or give us a unit that can found cities right away without all the extra percs. no game ever goes through a million years, but i know ur being facetious. Have you counted how many turns it takes, just to get to T3?

I wonder why they thought the AI needs to start with 2 cities right away, at least in the demo.

[Bovril Brigadier]

Being able to find a new city as a later tier unlock would be fine. The biggest issue is that early game you can be stuck dealing with hazards like bleed and they're the only unit that you can create that removes it.

[»ƲßƐƦ«]

Originally posted by Strayed:

Being able to find a new city as a later tier unlock would be fine. The biggest issue is that early game you can be stuck dealing with hazards like bleed and they're the only unit that you can create that removes it.

unless you build a city around it and then use the skill to clear out the tile. but you'd need to be able to BUILD a new city.

[SupremeMorpheus]

In their previous game, Gladius, the only units that could make a second city off the bat are the chaos cultists, and I believe that is still locked behind tier 3 research.

A second city isn't needed first thing. Unless you get real lucky, you'll want some time to scout for a good location for it anyway. Remember the full game's gonna have 10 tiers of research, not just the 6 we currently have

[Avloren]

Zephon/Gladius aren't played like most other 4X games. You're not meant to spam cities and cover the map; trying to do so will crash your economy. You can actually get a lot done with a single city, and a second city is a big investment that takes some time to pay off, you don't necessarily want to do it right off the bat anyway. You'll likely not want to go past 3, maybe 4 cities even in a long game. In that context, delaying new cities to tier 3 is not that big of a deal.

[»ƲßƐƦ«]

Originally posted by Avloren:

Zephon/Gladius aren't played like most other 4X games. You're not meant to spam cities and cover the map; trying to do so will crash your economy. You can actually get a lot done with a single city, and a second city is a big investment that takes some time to pay off, you don't necessarily want to do it right off the bat anyway. You'll likely not want to go past 3, maybe 4 cities even in a long game. In that context, delaying new cities to tier 3 is not that big of a deal.

Yet the AI gets two cities from the start... And how is having a second city supposed to crash your economy, When ur going to be making, building, and collecting more resources.?

[»ƲßƐƦ«]

Originally posted by SupremeMorpheus:

In their previous game, Gladius, the only units that could make a second city off the bat are the chaos cultists, and I believe that is still locked behind tier 3 research.

A second city isn't needed first thing. Unless you get real lucky, you'll want some time to scout for a good location for it anyway. Remember the full game's gonna have 10 tiers of research, not just the 6 we currently have

Yeah I don't like it. I wanna be able to build a sprawling army of units. One city isn't gonna cut it.

[Bad Karma]

I don't see it as a problem at all. By the time I get my first city built out and producing the resources and advanced units I need, I've unlocked engineers in the tech tree. I don't need to get engineers out earlier because I'm still balancing out my first city and uncovering areas of the map where I'd want to place my second city. I think if I were to build a second city before this time, I'd be spread too thin on troops and not have the solid foundation I need to ensure the success of my expansion.

[SupremeMorpheus]

Originally posted by »ƲßƐƦ«:

Originally posted by SupremeMorpheus:

In their previous game, Gladius, the only units that could make a second city off the bat are the chaos cultists, and I believe that is still locked behind tier 3 research.

A second city isn't needed first thing. Unless you get real lucky, you'll want some time to scout for a good location for it anyway. Remember the full game's gonna have 10 tiers of research, not just the 6 we currently have

Yeah I don't like it. I wanna be able to build a sprawling army of units. One city isn't gonna cut it.

This isn't the kind of game for that - a sprawling army is just gonna get caught up in a traffic jam trying to get to the enemy's base. It's about building up to better units that do more individually.

Not saying a large army isn't possible - it definitely is, it's just not great.

[»ƲßƐƦ«]

Originally posted by SupremeMorpheus:

Originally posted by »ƲßƐƦ«:

Yeah I don't like it. I wanna be able to build a sprawling army of units. One city isn't gonna cut it.

This isn't the kind of game for that - a sprawling army is just gonna get caught up in a traffic jam trying to get to the enemy's base. It's about building up to better units that do more individually.

Not saying a large army isn't possible - it definitely is, it's just not great.

Even if you don't want to make a massive amount of units to have a large army, expanding your economy and building cities early on is essential to establishing momentum to dominate the game. It will give you faster resources to win regardless which path you choose. Having such a basic yet vital unit behind so many research walls is pretty silly.

[SupremeMorpheus]

Originally posted by »ƲßƐƦ«:

Originally posted by SupremeMorpheus:

This isn't the kind of game for that - a sprawling army is just gonna get caught up in a traffic jam trying to get to the enemy's base. It's about building up to better units that do more individually.

Not saying a large army isn't possible - it definitely is, it's just not great.

Even if you don't want to make a massive amount of units to have a large army, expanding your economy and building cities early on is essential to establishing momentum to dominate the game. It will give you faster resources to win regardless which path you choose. Having such a basic yet vital unit behind so many research walls is pretty silly.

It's only tier 3 - that's not very far imo. But I am used to Gladius, where you can be waiting far longer for your tile clearing/base building unit (Thunderfire cannons are pain)

[»ƲßƐƦ«]

Originally posted by SupremeMorpheus:

Originally posted by »ƲßƐƦ«:

Even if you don't want to make a massive amount of units to have a large army, expanding your economy and building cities early on is essential to establishing momentum to dominate the game. It will give you faster resources to win regardless which path you choose. Having such a basic yet vital unit behind so many research walls is pretty silly.

It's only tier 3 - that's not very far imo. But I am used to Gladius, where you can be waiting far longer for your tile clearing/base building unit (Thunderfire cannons are pain)

Perhaps, I've never played Gladius. I'm used to Civ series, Endless Space, Gal Civ series... In those games you pretty much build up ur empire fast early or it's game over, for the most part. Maybe the pace in this game is a bit different, I need to expiriment some more, I've only played the last demo a few times. What threw me off was how fast the enemy npc AI was expanding compared to the player. Apperently they start with two cities right off the bat.

[SupremeMorpheus]

The neutral NPCs (Anchorite, Chieftess, Zephon) all start with two, but can't ever get more than two. Heck, I don't actually know if any other than Chieftess can even settle a new city. Right now, they seem like people you avoid/fight off/negotiate with early on and then crush later in the game, as they really don't scale up well. Only Zephon has a proper armored unit (although the Anchorite spamming dreameaters feels scuffed)

With Gladius, you can do the entire thing in one city if you want to. Generally it's preferred to get two or potentially three, but I never see a use beyond that myself. The AI will spam cities like no tomorrow if you let them (especially the guard) but you can comfortably survive the first... I want to say 40-50 turns without a second city and expect to not fall behind