GOG release, DLC, and Lan multiplayer

[Tiglath_Pilesar III]

Hello Devs,

I really enjoyed playing your previous game Gladius, because it seemed like the game was almost made for me in the way it addressed my biggest issue with 4X games, the combat. it seems like most of the titles in this genre devote all their energy to the Exploration, Expansion, Exploitation, but make Extermination not fun or at least not very interesting. Anyways I have a few questions about ZEPHON

1. Will this game come to GOG? I bought Gladius on GOG and generally prefer to Buy my games DRM Free and avoid using Steam if I can help it.

2. Relating top the first question: will this game have DRM free LAN or Direct Connetion multiplayer? By this I mean no account required for same network multiplayer? I loved this feature about Gladius and it is so rare these days. I own two pc's that i regularly use for LAN games, mostly with older titles like Age of wonders 2 or HOMM 3. LAN also extends the multiplayer life of games as noted by these two examples.

3. What is the DLC/Expansion content sales model going to be? I personally hated how therre were a million little dlc's for Gladius, from buying individual unit types to buying factions one by one. I felt like I was being nickle-and-dimed. This was especially annoying with the factions since there where several that I had no interest in playing but still wanted to fight as enemies in my own game, for example Chaos. I would much rather there be larger expansions for the game similar to Age of Conquerors for AOE2, or how Civilization does it. Anyways the whole 1000 and 1 micro dlc thing seems to be endemic to Slitherine published games regardless of developer, so I am not sure this was a developer decision with Gladius.

4. Also this is more of a gameplay question: will there be any kind of customization for units. Even if its only aesthetic it would be pretty cool, especially for someone like me who likes building kits and miniatures IRL. 4X games by their very nature often have a lot of room for creativity and self expression through game play, so I think that this would be a nice fit.

[Rok]

Thanks for the interest! Quite busy working on the game, so I'll keep it brief and you can follow-up if you need me to expand on something.

1. Most likely no GOG. They have an annoying system for uploading builds where you have to do everything manually and it's not worth the extra effort for our small team. The Steam version will be DRM-free; as in, you won't need Steam running to play it.

2. Yes to DRM-free LAN and Direct Connect. Same as in Gladius.

3. Probably less DLCs, but we'll most likely try to follow a similar model, at least if it's as successful as in Gladius. We want to keep supporting ZEPHON and keep making new games for as long as possible, and this seems to be the best way to let us fund that. Unless ZEPHON is a break-through success and we really don't need the extra bucks. BUT I don't think we're gonna lock leaders / factions for AI players in any case.

4. It's really hard (read: expensive) to do customization with the fidelity we're going for, so most likely will be very minimal. Happy to listen to exactly what people are looking for here. Maybe there's something we could do with coloring and decals.

[Tiglath_Pilesar III]

Hey thanks for replying to my questions, you basically answered everything.

1. Its nice that the game is going to be DRM free here and its perfectly understandable about GOG, I have actually seen other Devs have problems getting updates on there. I will definitely buy the game when it releases here since DRM free is DRM free regardless of store front. If you do eventually decide to release on GOG, maybe after the game reaches its final update, I would likely double dip by it from from there as well. I like having an offline installer backup, due to negative experiences with other online store fronts that I have had through the years. GOG makes this easy and I'm currently in the process of backing up my whole library there.

2. The whole game being DRM free is excellent as well. Many new games on GOG can't even boast this quality. One question, will there be a LAN server browser this time around?

3. The thing that really bothered me about Gladius was the inability to fight against factions that I didn't want to play and therefore pay for. What you mention seems like a good solution even though it means downloading locked assets I assume, sort of like on disk DLC. I don't really mind this. Also personally I found the concept of buying units or unit packs irritating, it makes me feel like I am playing the lite version. Anyways these are all secondary concerns as long as the base game is good.

4. Totally understandable that a small team wouldn't want to invest that much into advanced visual customization, which probably requires many more assets be made among other things. For me small things would be fine; like perhaps picking a primary and or secondary color and being able to rename units. Maybe designing a custom banner?

Also one last question: What is mod support/player content creation going to look like for this game. Will there be an intuitive map editor? I personally like making maps for strategy games and a lot of my gaming time in my youth was spent with the Age of Empires 2 map editor.

[Paradox101]

Originally posted by Rok:

Thanks for the interest! Quite busy working on the game, so I'll keep it brief and you can follow-up if you need me to expand on something.

1. Most likely no GOG. They have an annoying system for uploading builds where you have to do everything manually and it's not worth the extra effort for our small team. The Steam version will be DRM-free; as in, you won't need Steam running to play it.

2. Yes to DRM-free LAN and Direct Connect. Same as in Gladius.

3. Probably less DLCs, but we'll most likely try to follow a similar model, at least if it's as successful as in Gladius. We want to keep supporting ZEPHON and keep making new games for as long as possible, and this seems to be the best way to let us fund that. Unless ZEPHON is a break-through success and we really don't need the extra bucks. BUT I don't think we're gonna lock leaders / factions for AI players in any case.

4. It's really hard (read: expensive) to do customization with the fidelity we're going for, so most likely will be very minimal. Happy to listen to exactly what people are looking for here. Maybe there's something we could do with coloring and decals.

Hi, how are you!?

I don't want to be the boring one and I don't want to seem like I want to rush haha. You intend to release the game in 2023, is there any chance it will be pushed to 2024?
Are there real launch plans in 2023?

See, I'm in no hurry hahaha, more curiosity.

Thanks

[MainframeMouse]

Very disappointed there might not be a GoG release, though understand your frustration. This side of things needs desperately fixing, though I thought GOG had revamped its developer portal.

While it may be "DRM Free" on Steam you still have to agree to Valve's subscription service, you're still reinforcing Valve's monopoly and quite frankly I don't trust Valve not to add DRM into your game at some later point via a wrapper .exe or some such.

[Eternauta]

Originally posted by Rok:

Thanks for the interest! Quite busy working on the game, so I'll keep it brief and you can follow-up if you need me to expand on something.

1. Most likely no GOG. They have an annoying system for uploading builds where you have to do everything manually and it's not worth the extra effort for our small team. The Steam version will be DRM-free; as in, you won't need Steam running to play it.

This is because for some reason you refuse to use Galaxy's pipeline, or do you? It isn't nice that you pour your incompetence on GOG, when there are hundreds if not thousands of developers who have no problems on this side.

[MainframeMouse]

Originally posted by Eternauta:

Originally posted by Rok:

Thanks for the interest! Quite busy working on the game, so I'll keep it brief and you can follow-up if you need me to expand on something.

1. Most likely no GOG. They have an annoying system for uploading builds where you have to do everything manually and it's not worth the extra effort for our small team. The Steam version will be DRM-free; as in, you won't need Steam running to play it.

This is because for some reason you refuse to use Galaxy's pipeline, or do you? It isn't nice that you pour your incompetence on GOG, when there are hundreds if not thousands of developers who have no problems on this side.

Not the best way to enamour a developer

They're not the first (by a long shot), and I severely doubt they'd be the last to have issues with GoG's quirks.

I have huge respect for GOG, if not for them I'd have given up on PC gaming, but they're not without fault.

[Paradox101]

I don't have a problem if it's not released on GOG.
However, I would buy from both stores just to help as I've done with other indie games. For some it's crazy to buy the same game twice, I'd happily buy it when the game is actually good for me.
So, I only see advantages. If the dev doesn't currently see feasibility in this, that's fine. But I hope that in the more distant future it will come to GOG as well.

[TemplarGR]

I wouldn't get it on GOG anyway. I find no issue with DRM if it is well implemented and does not create issues for the game, the computer, and future incompatibilities. Steam's DRM is fine by me. May seem strange saying that as a Linux user, i know, the stereotype is that Linux users loathe DRM. But for example in Gladius, if any exists, it is unnoticeable by me. I don't like GOG because they are treating Linux as a second tier citizen, and everytime there is even a minor update, i have to download every single item again. Especially for large games, this is tiresome. I have unlimited bandwidth so it is not a huge deal in terms of internet, but still not the best thing for the disk drive (and my patience), having to re-install all the time.

And i don't hold GOG in much esteem either. They seem to be ditching ther non-drm policies lately, becoming a more stereotypical big video game corporation, so they don't need the "gamer cred" as much i suppose....

[MainframeMouse]

Originally posted by TemplarGR:

I wouldn't get it on GOG anyway. I find no issue with DRM if it is well implemented and does not create issues for the game, the computer, and future incompatibilities. Steam's DRM is fine by me. May seem strange saying that as a Linux user, i know, the stereotype is that Linux users loathe DRM. But for example in Gladius, if any exists, it is unnoticeable by me. I don't like GOG because they are treating Linux as a second tier citizen, and everytime there is even a minor update, i have to download every single item again. Especially for large games, this is tiresome. I have unlimited bandwidth so it is not a huge deal in terms of internet, but still not the best thing for the disk drive (and my patience), having to re-install all the time.

And i don't hold GOG in much esteem either. They seem to be ditching ther non-drm policies lately, becoming a more stereotypical big video game corporation, so they don't need the "gamer cred" as much i suppose....

The Problem with DRM, special Online account based DRM like Steam, is you're not just agreeing to the restrictions and terms of today, but you've written a blank cheque for what ever restrictions they want to add in the future.

Steam was from 2004 til about 2008, a nice alternative to physical media. I bought a few games for me and few for my wife-to-be, on my account. And there was no issue, I played my games, she played hers, both from my account, online, at the same time. Not only did the DRM allow it, so did the SSA.

Then around 2008 they updated the DRM and the SSA. Either agree to new contract or you couldn't get into Steam. Where private shared use was implied in the original SSA, it was explicitly denied in the New, this was of course moot since the DRM enforced it anyway.

I had to create a new account for my wife and re-buy a dozen games. This was a serious slap in the face, I went back to physical media only to find Steam was now a prerequisite for most major games.

Really cut back on PC gaming.
Then I discovered GOG, they pretty much saved PC Gaming for me.

10-20 years ago I was a huge open source advocate, ran Linux on my work machine, dual boot at home.

Unfortunately Valve has a greater dominance over Linux gaming than it does over Windows, and in part GOG are to blame, they should have got Galaxy working on Linux at the start.

[Paradox101]

Originally posted by TemplarGR:

I wouldn't get it on GOG anyway. I find no issue with DRM if it is well implemented and does not create issues for the game, the computer, and future incompatibilities. Steam's DRM is fine by me. May seem strange saying that as a Linux user, i know, the stereotype is that Linux users loathe DRM. But for example in Gladius, if any exists, it is unnoticeable by me. I don't like GOG because they are treating Linux as a second tier citizen, and everytime there is even a minor update, i have to download every single item again. Especially for large games, this is tiresome. I have unlimited bandwidth so it is not a huge deal in terms of internet, but still not the best thing for the disk drive (and my patience), having to re-install all the time.

And i don't hold GOG in much esteem either. They seem to be ditching ther non-drm policies lately, becoming a more stereotypical big video game corporation, so they don't need the "gamer cred" as much i suppose....

I never said that DRM is a problem, I've been using steam since 2010. So...
I would buy from gog for the "free drm" issue, as I like to save games as a backup. It's nostalgia for the old days, I've been playing on PCs since 2000 and a little earlier, PC games on BIG BOX and magazines... So buying at gog is almost like that for me... It's a personal matter, better or worse, drm or not... it depends on the person...

[SilasOfBorg]

Originally posted by Rok:

Thanks for the interest! Quite busy working on the game, so I'll keep it brief and you can follow-up if you need me to expand on something.

1. Most likely no GOG. They have an annoying system for uploading builds where you have to do everything manually and it's not worth the extra effort for our small team. The Steam version will be DRM-free; as in, you won't need Steam running to play it.

That sounds like a bizarre reason not to sell through GOG -- unless you are expecting sales numbers is in single digits, I would guess that a few developer hours a month to upload patches manually would be more than compensated by the extra sales from GOG.

I will continue to hope that Proxy eventually decides to sell through GOG, as I prefer to own my games rather than lease them and I already have the rest of Proxy's titles there.

Best luck with Zephon either way!

[MainframeMouse]

Originally posted by SilasOfBorg:

Originally posted by Rok:

Thanks for the interest! Quite busy working on the game, so I'll keep it brief and you can follow-up if you need me to expand on something.

1. Most likely no GOG. They have an annoying system for uploading builds where you have to do everything manually and it's not worth the extra effort for our small team. The Steam version will be DRM-free; as in, you won't need Steam running to play it.

That sounds like a bizarre reason not to sell through GOG -- unless you are expecting sales numbers is in single digits, I would guess that a few developer hours a month to upload patches manually would be more than compensated by the extra sales from GOG.

I will continue to hope that Proxy eventually decides to sell through GOG, as I prefer to own my games rather than lease them and I already have the rest of Proxy's titles there.

Best luck with Zephon either way!

It's unfortunately not that bizarre. GOG, from what I can tell, still have a very manual, hand on system. What may take a couple of minutes to upload on steam, can take 30minute via GOG.

It might not sound like much, but small teams work on such tiny margins something like this is enough to push developers away. I wish it was different, GOG really needs a more automated and open system.

[SilasOfBorg]

That's just it -- if you look at numbers alone (which may not tell the whole story, of course) a small team with a tiny margin cannot afford to NOT sell through GOG unless they are
*expecting* absolutely terrible sales.

Let's say, very conservatively, that one exceedingly well paid developer ($100/hr USD) would need to spend *10 hours* a month uploading builds and fighting with GOG's clunky developer interface.

Assume further that Zephon is $40 on GOG and GOG's cut is 30%. Remember, there are no extra production costs per unit here, it's all digital. So that's a net $28 per copy. This means that 35 copies is break even against the developer time, and any more is pure profit.

Again conservatively, let's say GOG's market share is 8% (I've seen estimates as high as 15% and as low as 4%.. personally I think 8% is probably about right).

This math tells me that one of the following is probably true:

a) they literally do not have the developer time to spare, or
b) they are expecting to sell fewer than 500 copies of Zephon on Steam (which would very roughly translate into ~40 copies on GOG) -- for comparison. Gladius has sold at least 100,000 copies, or
c) there is some other reason but Rok isn't at liberty to say (perhaps Proxy has had a rocky relationship with GOG or there's some ongoing financial dispute.. who knows)

Like I said, on the surface it is an odd reason. I could accept (a) in alpha or beta, but post release? I don't see it. I really hope it isn't (b) -- with their track record I can't imagine them *betting on* Zephon being a turd. So I'm going with (c).

Anyway, it's been a fun conversation but I think I've said everything I could possibly say about it.. if it shows up on GOG, great. If not, there's a lot of other games in my backlog. Maybe I'll just play more Gladius, which after all these years is still a staple in my MP gaming group. :)

[MainframeMouse]

Originally posted by SilasOfBorg:

Again conservatively, let's say GOG's market share is 8% (I've seen estimates as high as 15% and as low as 4%.. personally I think 8% is probably about right).

A few years ago, Before EPIC upset the apple cart, I contacted about 3 dozen developers that released on GOG to get an idea of percentage sales.

It was driven by this PC Gamer article

https://www.pcgamer.com/divinity-original-sin-2-has-sold-one-million-copies/

What I found out, was for companies like Larian, who release day 1 on GOG and who proudly advertise their upcoming GOG releases, 8% of PC sales via GOG was a reasonable estimate. Some did even better.

But if you didn't release day 1 or made no attempt to advertise your GOG release, that figure dropped sharply.

Its the reason "No More Robots" no longer publish on GOG. They did release some of their games day 1 on GOG (about 4-5 hours after Steam), but made no effort to advertise their GOG releases. In fact a weeks before release I asked them on twitter is it coming to GOG and they said NO. Given GOG's curation process, they certainly were in the final stages of signing off a GOG release. And because of this their GOG sales were <1%.

Most other Devs that didn't advertise/day 1 release wasn't that bad, but still nowhere near the 8%.

Most indie Devs/Pubs need to put a huge effort into pre-release marketing in order to drum up wishlists and "game" Steams algorithms, and many see GOG as a distraction from that. So they either don't release or release and don't get the expected sales.

[SilasOfBorg]

Originally posted by MainframeMouse:

Most other Devs that didn't advertise/day 1 release wasn't that bad, but still nowhere near the 8%.

Interesting - thanks for sharing! Seems one still needs to do the work, put the word out there, etc and that decent sales won't magically happen just "because GOG". :)