One sided good-bad view

[khairangvau]

I suggest the developer to reconsider the narrative of this game a little bit. Please don't paint any side in this conflict as pure evil or good, both the Red, the White. and the Czech. This civil war was really complicated, and doing so make this game look much more like a propaganda than a story. Most importantly, you might alienate a substantial amount of potential customers who have sympathy for the Communist (trust me, A LOT), or the White. And beside, historically the Czech were not exactly the saint either, just one thing to keep in mind.

[Wright1331]

I think they should go with whatever their vision is for the game. The customers with be there no matter the narrative as long as the game play is good.

[Zamir GOAT [MLG Monkey King]]

I agree with OP, but I'm sure it's way too late in the development to change it. Guess we'll see.

[The Mogician]

I think historically the legion fought whoever was in their way, regardless of red or white.

[Mitth'raw'nuruodo]

For what its worth, I am considered a leftist by most people. My father was a communist activist. My mother's brother was a communist activist who was imprisoned and brutalised by agents of the right wing government of my country, Thanks to being brought up by them I subscribe to many communist / socialist ideologies.

Yet I have absolutely no problems with the narrative in this game. It is basic common sense that events in a game will be portrayed from the point of view of the protagonists. Nor do I have any delusions about communists of the time period of this game (or any time period really, including the present). Majority of them would not give a flying f*** about any ideologies, and were simply out for power and / or wealth for themselves.

You are more likely to face complaints from Russian trolls and bots (irrespective of whether they yearn for the days of the USSR) than any actual communist with a functional brain.

[THE CAKE MAKER]

I hope that the apparent anti-soviet bias is something that is exclusive to the limited scope of the demo and not something that is actually going to be present in the final game. As it currently stands I have removed it from my wishlist until more information is available.

[Cybner]

In all likelihood, the game does not correspond to historical events at all, starting with the fact that this legion consisted of prisoners of war who fought on the side of the Entente and not mercenaries. Ending with the fact that this legion was given the order to destroy Soviet power, and the game will obviously not cover the atrocities that the White Czechs committed in Samara, Chapaevsk and other cities from Pskov to Vladivostok

[Vielo]

Anyone that still sympathizes with the Soviets, even after their countless atrocities were uncovered and made public, is not worth pandering to as a customer. Just reinstate the iron curtain and make your own games along with North Korea if you don't like facing the thruth. The Germans are not complaining that the nazis are always the bad guys in movies and games, and nor should you be angry about showing the true colors of communism to the world.

I find the game amazing and will buy it on release for sure. Just hope that they will optimize it better because currently it runs way too bad considering how it looks.

[Seg_rus]

Originally posted by Turtler:

Originally posted by Seg_rus:

You shouldn't even hope for any historicism in this game.

I see no point in discussing anything further and provide evidence.
Moderators delete comments they find inconvenient, including mine.

P.S. Just for reference.
Initially, the Czechoslovak corps was subordinate and was created within the army of the Russian Empire and was armed with its money, its weapons, etc.
All their military property was the property of the Russian Empire.
When they were subordinated to France, France did not declare war on Soviet Russia and all the actions of the Czechoslovak corps are essentially arbitrary.

[Turtler]

Originally posted by Seg_rus:

I see no point in discussing anything further and provide evidence.

Fair, your choice.

Originally posted by Seg_rus:

Moderators delete comments they find inconvenient, including mine.

If that's true, that's unfortunate and I criticize it. And if you have another venue or means you'd prefer to deal with this with, feel free.

Originally posted by Seg_rus:

P.S. Just for reference.
Initially, the Czechoslovak corps was subordinate and was created within the army of the Russian Empire and was armed with its money, its weapons, etc.

Mostly true. The Czechsolovak Legion in Russia was created within the Russian Imperial Army. There were other Czechoslovak Legions (including ones serving under Serbia - which got a lot of Czechoslovaks that were frustrated by the slow authorization of the Russian Legion - France, and Italy on other fronts) but they were usually smaller and less notable.

Most of what you describe was indeed property of the Russian Empire, but not all of it, especially since a fair bit of its budget and equipment (a minority but not all) was paid for through first grassroots donations, and then the funding of the Czechoslovak Provisional Government (and by extension the mixtures of Western government sponsorship and grassroots donations funding it).

This is somewhat relevant because it underlines that the Czechoslovak Government had an independent existence of its own and legally held property and finances, which the various Russian governments recognized (though the Bolsheviks more grudgingly for fairly obvious ideological reasons).

Originally posted by Seg_rus:

All their military property was the property of the Russian Empire.

Half true. Most of it was the property of the Russian Empire, but not all of it.

Moreover, as the Bolsheviks were fond of pointing out, the Russian Empire was defunct by March 1917, and not all of its assets were given over.

The debt the Legion in Russia had to Russia materially and financially was recognized by their government and the French (among others), which is one reason why the Czechoslovak Legion was made to give any of it back. Which they did.

HOWEVER, they were not forced to give anything like all that was alleged back, because again the Legion was internationally recognized as a military unit *and no Russian government had legal right to disarm it without French approval.* Which is why the Bolsheviks on one hand and the Czechoslovak and French governments on the other bargained a fair bit and ultimately gave it an authorized strength of either a very large division or small corps with dependents, and armaments significantly but not overwhelmingly below doctrinal standards for such units, including artillery and independent machine gun units.

The Bolsheviks reneged on this later, but that does not change the legality of the matter. Especially since even the minimalist narrative admitted even "free citizens" had to retain arms to defend against banditry or "counter-revolutionaries", and the Legion were *most assuredly NOT free citizens* but a fighting unit of the French Armee de Terre and accorded the rights inherent in that.

The fact that the Czechoslovaks actually accepted handoffs of further equipment and weapons below the agreed upon limit speaks both to the laxity or bad faith the Bolsheviks had in the agreement, as well as truly spectacular efforts by the Legion to act in good faith until after Chelyabinsk (when they had ample reason to believe the Bolsheviks would not abide by them).

Originally posted by Seg_rus:

When they were subordinated to France, France did not declare war on Soviet Russia

TECHNICALLY true, but that becomes much less important when you realize France did not recognize the Bolsheviks as the Government of Russia or anywhere else except unofficially.

Moreover, soon after Chelyabinsk the French started putting in contingency operations to do things like occupy Odessa and the Crimea in order to serve as staging grounds for anti-Central Powers and anti-Bolshevik combat operations, especially after July 1918 when General Dunsterville reported that the Bolshevik-dominated Baku Soviet who he had previously counted as an ally against the Germans, Turks, and other Jihadis had been arranging the ambush and murders of members of his command with Iranian Guerrillas, and so he decided to do unto them before they did unto him.

That's what we call under international law "Defacto State of War" or at least "Defacto state of military conflict." And while it's certainly true the French and other Western Allies were never wholeheartedly committed to it, the fact remains that the one-two punches of Chelyabinsk and Baku destroyed any faith Paris, Rome, Tokyo, and London had in the Bolsheviks being truly neutral and even pushed the US to intervene.

Originally posted by Seg_rus:

and all the actions of the Czechoslovak corps are essentially arbitrary.

Define "arbitrary" in this context.

[Vielo]

Since you are the one trying to convince us about something (against commonly and easily available sources!), the burden of proof is on you. And you not only failed to deliver, but were also caught red-handed trying to manipulate your own "sources".

You say x, y, z, and post links to "prove" those claims. We disprove them one by one, often by quoting your own "proof". And you start acting like the victim, possibly trying to create an impression that we are unfairly ganging up on you (this is my impression). Which is another petty manipulation.

I will give you one more opportunity to answer a question I asked at the very begininning of those discussions: why did you say that the Legion was made up of prisoners (instead of prisoners of war, which is a completely different thing!) Was it because you wanted to create an impression they were criminals? You clearly know English very well, so we can rule out a misunderstanding or an honest mistake. What was your reason? Or you're going to ignore this point as you ignored all the others?

Honestly how hard is this to grasp? Do your tactics work in the Sov... Russian Federation? Because they sure as hell are not working here in the free world.

[Cybner]

Originally posted by Vielo:

Since you are the one trying to convince us about something (against commonly and easily available sources!), the burden of proof is on you. And you not only failed to deliver, but were also caught red-handed trying to manipulate your own "sources".

You say x, y, z, and post links to "prove" those claims. We disprove them one by one, often by quoting your own "proof". And you start acting like the victim, possibly trying to create an impression that we are unfairly ganging up on you (this is my impression). Which is another petty manipulation.

I will give you one more opportunity to answer a question I asked at the very begininning of those discussions: why did you say that the Legion was made up of prisoners (instead of prisoners of war, which is a completely different thing!) Was it because you wanted to create an impression they were criminals? You clearly know English very well, so we can rule out a misunderstanding or an honest mistake. What was your reason? Or you're going to ignore this point as you ignored all the others?

Honestly how hard is this to grasp? Do your tactics work in the Sov... Russian Federation? Because they sure as hell are not working here in the free world.

The legion consisted of former Entente soldiers captured during the fighting and who agreed to fight against the Entente for money, Or giving, from my point of view it’s the same thing
If you call every word I say propaganda, it doesn’t become that.

[Dallon Avery]

I knew this would spark a discussion like this. Reading some of the comments from certain users here I realize that the world has truly went to ♥♥♥♥.

[Arakus]

Please mods can you close this nonsene thread?
Its a game forum, politics are not welcome here.

[Mokkori]

Troll and disinformation risk no ban? I don't know if I missed something insulting Turtler said but the target of the ban is strange in my eyes...

[Cybner]

Originally posted by Mokkori:

Troll and disinformation risk no ban? I don't know if I missed something insulting Turtler said but the target of the ban is strange in my eyes...

As is obvious, this user did not behave correctly and was naturally blocked, in my opinion everything is fine