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I assume as much, but if he wants to nitpick every detail, why not return the favor? He flat out said vikings had contact with Americans in 980 lol. For someone as "well read" as claimed, is roughly 800 years off on this quote...
Quote:"Go read a book. You want vikings, they cross paths with Americans earlier than anyone else."
The population is referred to as Native Americans... but why not just use the continent as an identifier? This is a time period before colonization, so if I'm going to use a regional identifier I'm just going to say American.
If I want to get specific I might say South American, Central American, North American.
https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/hub-civilization-concepts/204999
That's how people have approached this subject for years within the community.
Hope this helps!
All of the comments here are arguing FOR the inclusion of the vikings...
Let's also not forget they claimed land in what is now England and beat the brakes off the countrymen living there and introduced Danelaw. The English are in the game and were beaten badly for years by vikings, so I wouldn't say they were weaker than other civs in the time period(they raided more than outright war with other countries/cultures). The fact they raided so many empires is proof they were a force to not be taken lightly!
The vikings had one of the most disciplined armies in the world, so much so that other countries/cultures started using their tactics themselves after getting their butts handed to them in battle. I think their fleets are the major factor here though, in the beginning of the time span no one else could navigate the seas. In other words, no one could follow them home to fight them on their home turf without knowledge of the russian/finland land route to norway/sweden, which was controlled by sweden depending on time frame, whereas Denmark is connected to Europe. I don't recall anyone besides the Romans, who used navy to get to England obviously, ever using a navy outside the Mediterranean area so early(almost 100% certain they weren't ocean worthy either, but the vikings were).
You're correct that the term viking was actually a profession in norse culture(like legionnaire of the Romans). If anything I'd probably argue to just include norse(English is also a culture not a country) instead of strictly the Danes as vikings came from norway, sweden, and denmark. Denmark was constantly at war with norway around the 1000s going forward to the Kalmar Union in 1397-1523 and invaded again in 1537 making norway a puppet state. Depending on the time frame you point to in this span, Denmark did not rule over Norway. They did at times, but also lost control a number of times when they did, reconquered at least once by a son of a Danish King(Harald I into Sweyn I).
Example: Cnut being declared King of Norway along with Denmark and England in 1028 and losing control of Norway while still alive in 1034. Have to remember, the vikings were at war among themselves more than they were at war with any other country/culture/empire. Sweden was independent of Denmark in this time period, besides the Kalmar Union, and also ruled over Norway for a time.
Fun fact, the English were in a personal union with denmark and norway for a while in this time period too. From what I can tell from a reddit post, English time frame is 800-1600s. The Kingdom of the English didn't even exist until 920-940 when Alfred's(retook London from vikings) descendants finished uniting the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms. Cnut(Danish King) was King of England already when he became King of Norway in 1028... So, the English who are in the game, are controlled by Denmark(whom you say are weaker) for part of their time frame in AoE4! Honestly, had they not fought each other over power and greed, the entire world might be norse today. Typical human description...
LOL, so I click your link, and no where under North America does it list Americans!!! It does however list a bunch of Indian tribes! You just linked proof no one calls Native Americans, or anyone on north america in general "americans"... Go call a canadian an american, I dare you =)
For being so nitpicky on someone else's post, I don't understand how you think it's ok or normal to be oh so vague and generalize everyone on a continent into one specific CULTURE. American is a culture/nationality, not a continent!(Hope this helps!) Especially considering americans didn't even exist until the mid 1700s! /facepalm
The colonists who formed the nations that we know today, Canada and the United States of America, are not American. As in from the continent. Keep in mind we are talking about eras from before the 1600s.
If this was in the AoE 3 timeline I could understand the confusion, but when we talk about this period and use the term American we are not talking about the colonies that were made after Europe "discovered" the place that millions of people lived in for thousands of years prior to their voyage west.
While often used interchangeably, "tribe" and "Native American nation" refer to the same group of people, but "nation" is generally considered a more respectful term as it emphasizes the sovereign political status of Indigenous communities, highlighting their right to self-governance, whereas "tribe" can sometimes be seen as a less respectful term with colonial connotations; many Native American groups prefer to be referred to as "nations" rather than "tribes."
I'm not using the incorrect terminology here... In your own logic about using terms from the specific time period, they were called indians and tribes and nations... As I previously mentioned, the term native american didn't exist until after the United States was formed, and not widely used until the 1960s.... Nowadays they are referred to as Native American Nations.
FYI, Indians can exist in more than one place than just India. Eskimos in Alaska are asian... The Aztec originated in North America(there's a theory the Aztec gold is hidden in the USA), not in Mexico, and they were also indians. There's indians in both central and south america too, notably the maya and inca. Indian was the old term used, they didn't call them the native indigenous people there or then either... Now we call them latin american or latino, central/south american if you want to be vague. Didn't they teach you about the church calling the "indians" heretics and savages when Spain found them in central/south america and started missionaries to convert all of them or kill them? Ended in a slaughter.
Go read a book... LOL =)
As for your bs on canada and USA, the colonists in the 13 colonies were referred to as american(not english or scottish or irish or dutch or italian) by a lot of europe by the 1760s, which I'll remind you is prior to our war of independence. Prior they were referred to as the british colonies, british people under british rule. Being this is all after the time frame, why bring this up? Using your own logic as noted above, the term american didn't even exist yet and you used it to define the north american indians(the proper time period term).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Cartier
Hope this helps!
I read both links, and neither have anything to do with this conversation. So what a dude came up with the name Canada in the mid 1500s, which is practically out of the time frame of AoE4 in the first place and was French! So what he met the Iroquois, he's not the only one who met indians in north america! Nothing in either wikipedia(which is a horrible site to use as a reference of facts) states anything about what the Indians were called or says anything about these so called "Americans" you claim existed before around 1760... Posting complete bs probably hoping I wouldn't indulge myself with some reading.
Anything written in recent times will use the politically correct term of native american instead of indian, because indian was viewed as a racial slur when used in reference to native americans. They've gone so far as to change some professional sports team's names over this in recent years(Cleveland Indians are now the Cleveland Guardians, Washington ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ are now the Washington Commanders for 2 examples), but apparently this goes over your head... I suggest a quick google search of "is indian a racial slur"...
I will continue to believe what I learned in school and/or read in real encyclopedias(something actually factual), while you keep reading wikipedia that is written by anyone who feels like it. They were called Indians, whether you like it or not. I guess you've never heard of "Cowboys and Indians"? It wasn't "Cowboys and Native Americans"...
"The word indian came to be used because Christopher Columbus repeatedly expressed the mistaken belief that he had reached the shores of South Asia. Convinced he was correct, Columbus fostered the use of the term Indios(originally, "person from the Indus valley") to refer to the peoples of the so-called New World." Quoted from Britannica!!!
Go read a book!
So your time frame logic on terminology only applies to what your belief is and not what actually was used? I've said it already, but I'll say it again, the term Native American wasn't widely used until the 1960s, yes the 1960s, 20th friggin century!!!!! There also won't be any confusion on different indian empires either because just like the indians in india, the indians in north america all have specific names like Iroquois, Cherokee, Apache, etc etc etc! Tell me, where in AoE4 is there a civ called Indians??? If you're stupid enough to think the Apache were in India, well then I do highly suggest reading some actual real books!
"Typical American bigotry", lmao ok whatever buddy! It's called historical facts you ignorant putz! You've been schooled using your own logic against you =) I just wish an actual native american would chime in and set you straight...
Henry VII, the monarch who commissioned the explorer John Cabot, is the man who started the Tudor dynasty (the design of Imperial age English is Tudor). Reminder: John Cabot's voyage was 1497.
https://www.ageofempires.com/games/age-of-empires-iv/civilizations/english/
"Age of Empires IV introduces the English civilization during the Anglo-Saxon era in Great Britain spanning from 850-1555 CE. (...) Age of Empires IV has you build up the English civilization across four eras: the Anglo-Saxon, Anglo-Norman, English Gothic, and Tudor eras."
Like, bro, I wasn't being hyperbolic. The dude was completely wrong.
This tangent was perpetuated because y'all are allergic to reading. Triggered by being told you don't know history.
I only wanted to post to support the addition of north american civs... get over yourself sheesh
We ALL agree that would be awesome.
"MustardTiger" was makin a very good point, explaining why the DEVs probably won't put the "american tribes" in THIS game because AOE4 is based in Europe and Asia. They have already accommodated for including the american tribes, but that's a different game where it's relevant- AOE3.
Most likely after the DEVs see this thread they will probably remake AOE3 and include the Vikings (which is already in AOM retold) as well as any other suggested existing tribes relevant to the historical events how THEY see fit.
Erb-a very intelligent gentleman- made a lot of accurate statements about when there was contacted with the Native American Tribes, but still fails to admit that these tribes NEVER sailed across the Pacific ocean or Atlantic ocean. It's a historical fact
So even though it would be fantastic to battle Mohawks vs Byzantines, in history, they didn't cross paths.
The DEVs may be working on a game that allows this connection right now.
We just don't know.
The hypothetical issue just got way off course because Erb misunderstood the conversation.
Hopefully this clears up all the confusion.
From reading Erbs posts, I think he only here to troll and mess with everyone here. He's obviously twisting subjects to get people riled up. At this point I suggest ignoring his posts.
So... here's the thing. That actually happened. There's credible evidence that South Americans sailed west across the Pacific Ocean and intermingled the Polynesians. You know, one of the largest Asian populations in the south Pacific region.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/native-americans-polynesians-meet-180975269/
It actually comes down to potatos. They originate from Peru, being domesticated around 10,000 years ago. The polynesian diet has had sweet potatoes for a long time, and that lead to studies being done trying to understand that connection.
Through genetics testing they found connections that bring interactions at approx 1200.
So Native Americans had interactions with people from Asia at that point.
Then, there's evidence of travel along the Bering Strait. The Yup'ik and Aleut people.
Like, I can see the point you're trying to make with North Americans and South Americans.
It's obviously about excluding them with whatever excuse you have. You're just going to move the goalposts a third time to make it seem 'wrong' to add them.
I just have to ask: Why shouldn't they add them? It's not about them not having met europeans or w/e within the timeline.
Seriously guys, reading about history can't hurt you.
First of all, as previously stated, american wasn't even a thing until roughly 1760s when europe started calling the colonists americans instead of british subjects, so please do explain to us dumb americans how the indians were called americans before the word american was even used? You also completely ignored the fact that it was Christopher Columbus that started the reference of indian to the natives in the americas! I quoted it straight from a friggin encyclopedia, unlike your use of wiki... I proved you wrong and you completely ignored the fact!
Secondly, Great Britain didn't exist in this time frame either!!! YOU are the one who said we should use the terminology from the time frame of the game! Why are you quoting incorrect terminology, yet accusing others of using incorrect terminology for the time period??? Great Britain was formed in 1707... Over 150 years after the english time frame!
No where did I ever say the indian tribes in north america should be excluded from the game, literally no where. Nor do i give 2 flying fux about the french naming canada or making contact with the Iroquois, which for some reason you went on a completely off subject tangent trying to prove your point that indians weren't called indians because they aren't in India... Which you're 100% WRONG about! So, who is allergic to reading and triggered by being told they don't know their history??? *Points finger at Erb!*
Why do I have to get over myself? You disputed what I said and I proved what I said was the correct terminology via historical facts... If anything, you need to get over yourself, being you are the incorrect one, not me!
It's hilarious that you contradict yourself here too, stating the time frame is up to 1644 and then quoted the time frame of the english which is 850-1555. That's an entire century(89 years to be exact) difference! So, like I stated, your references about the french explorers is practically out of the time frame! Some of the crap you posted was dated 1550 ish... Another nice piece of information you neglect, is that Columbus, in 1492 sailed the ocean blue, before the french explorers, so wtf dude? Columbus had already named the indians, indians, before your oh so important french explorers even left port... It also wasn't until 1507 that they named the "New World" America. That's 14-15 years after Columbus called them Indians! Sooooo....
Quotes:
Christopher Columbus didn't name the New World, but the name "America" was given in honor of Amerigo Vespucci shortly after Columbus's death in 1506.
Before the name "America" was used, Spanish explorers called the area the Indies, believing it was part of Asia. Columbus also referred to the area as part of Asia.
The term "Indian"
Columbus called the people he encountered "los indios", which is Spanish for "Indians". The term comes from the Portuguese word for "Indians".
The term "American Indian"
The term "American" was later added to "Indian" to differentiate the indigenous peoples of the Americas from those of South Asia.
The term "Native American"
In the 1960s, some activists in the United States and Canada rejected the phrase "American Indian" because it was seen as a misnomer and sometimes carried racist connotations.
End Quotes:
Hope this helps!
Go read a book!
Stay on subject! Not that it matters because I'm done with your ignorant self...
Twisting subjects is exactly right, along with completely ignoring the fact he got schooled by actual historical facts that didn't come from a wiki like his crap did and then telling others to get over themselves LOL!!!