AoE4 is made officially for the Casual-E-Sports Audience, not for the RTS Audience.

[Blitzwing]

AoE4 is made officially for the Casual-E-Sports Audience, not for the RTS Audience.

Here the source for the interviews.
https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/relic-talks-about-aoe-iv-esports-multiplayer-art-direction-own-identity-respecting-feedbacks-etc/123862


For years RTS genre is plagued with a big problem, often the games are not made for us, but for an audience that does not exist. And fail, becouse there is on the market, no demand for such games. An Audience for Casual-E-Sports does not exist!


What are actually RTS games, those are games where you make choices and decisions. To do so, you require a certain degree of games complexity to have a choice and a certain degree of pace to plan and react.

As we have seen, for the Casuals it get simplified and for the E-Sports it does get speed up, which results in a completely different product, and for some weird reason also unbalanced asymmetry is added, so you can't properly play those games in PVP.

Why should the fate of AoE4 be any different alike Empire Earth 3, Red Alert 3, AoE Online, Rise of Legends, Universe at War and Dawn of War 3?


Microsoft why is your game Rise of Legends not available on any online store?
Universe at War is not available any online store either. Those games failed so hard, they don't even try to sell them anymore. We all know how by last AoE games Online & Castle Siege the plug was pulled.That DoW3 has over 10.000 negative ratings on steam. C&C 4 Tiberium Twilight killed the C&C franchise.



I don't know what to write at this point, any market research proofs this isn't profitable and that people don't want such Casual-E-Sports games: EE3, RA3, AoE Online, and DoW3 were massively already pre-release disapproved by the very own communities for their design and gameplay.


How do they imagine it?
There is no financial logical reason to do such Casual-E-Sports games.

So people who can't play RTS games, are supposed to buy games they can't play?
E-Sports People who don't care about RTS games, are supposed to buy games they have no interest into? And RTS people are going to accept that their product was made worse,
for those who don't want it in the first place?

All we see right now is that worst predictions for AoE4 are coming true.

[Neurotic Panda]

If you don't like the game or the direction its headed... then simply don't play it. my god. its not a hard concept.

Play any of the other million RTS games out there that fit what you want from a game or the genre.

Do you think Microsoft or the devs of this game/franchise are going to come to steam, read a bunch of whining and moaning about their new game and say.. YUP. cancel all development lets do what the whiners on the steam forums want.

Its nothing personal but its literally 50 posts a day about why people don't like it. we get it. move on, play something else. They aren't going to stop making this how they want at this point. AoE has a huge following and they know this game will sell faster then anything.

I'd bet even the moaners and groaners and Microsoft haters who are on here complaining every day will buy this game still, even though they 'hate' it so much.

IDK game looks like good fun to me. I'm weird though and I don't take games so seriously and I generally play them for fun. lifes to short. but hey.. w/e.

[....]

Originally posted by Neurotic Panda:

If you don't like the game or the direction its headed... then simply don't play it. my god. its not a hard concept.

Play any of the other million RTS games out there that fit what you want from a game or the genre.

Do you think Microsoft or the devs of this game/franchise are going to come to steam, read a bunch of whining and moaning about their new game and say.. YUP. cancel all development lets do what the whiners on the steam forums want.

Its nothing personal but its literally 50 posts a day about why people don't like it. we get it. move on, play something else. They aren't going to stop making this how they want at this point. AoE has a huge following and they know this game will sell faster then anything.

I'd bet even the moaners and groaners and Microsoft haters who are on here complaining every day will buy this game still, even though they 'hate' it so much.

IDK game looks like good fun to me. I'm weird though and I don't take games so seriously and I generally play them for fun. lifes to short. but hey.. w/e.

Can people please stop posting this nonsensical argument. People care about this genre and the series therefore they state their opinion - games are their hobbies (but that would probably be great for review scores - only review a game if you like it if not just dont play and review it - so every game would be great because only people who like it play and rate it). Also the next thing you use "haters" - for people that seriously care about a game - that has nothing todo with "hate" - i think the whole term is pretty awful anyways - i dislike some games and people but to be honest i dont think i actually "hate" anything or anyone ...

Actually people complain a lot because they like the series and the genre a lot - if people didnt care or even hated something for some weird reason - why would they even bother to post here? I think the 50 posts of people like you - complaining about critique ... - are way worse than people trying to improve the game. Its the same in real life - its better if somebody actually tells you their opinion (even if you dont agree with it) before you do something that might be bad (for example a bad financial decision) - than not saying a thing when his opinion maybe could have made you rethink your decision.

But hey - if you cant deal with people having other opinions maybe you should follow your own advice applied to forums:

"if you dont like the posts in this forum, then simply dont read them and dont reply, my god. its not a hard concept." ...

[GenSec39]

Originally posted by Neurotic Panda:

If you don't like the game or the direction its headed... then simply don't play it. my god. its not a hard concept.

Mmmm, our favourite "don't like it - don't buy it" narrative. It even worked well in the past, right?

Originally posted by Neurotic Panda:

Do you think Microsoft or the devs of this game/franchise are going to come to steam, read a bunch of whining and moaning about their new game and say.. YUP. cancel all development lets do what the whiners on the steam forums want.

Indeed, why would they listen to fans, who were supporting this francise before these new developers were even born? - ridiculous. I heard the same narrative before the release of DoW 3, that they are targeting "wider audience" so "old whinners" may shut up. S-so, how is that "wider audience" supporting DoW3 atm?

[Blitzwing]

Originally posted by Neurotic Panda:

If you don't like the game or the direction its headed... then simply don't play it. my god. its not a hard concept.

Exactly this the problem, it results in death of the franchise if people dont play it.
A franchise I have been fan for over 24 years.

Originally posted by Neurotic Panda:

Do you think Microsoft or the devs of this game/franchise are going to come to steam, read.

They should do it. Its part of the job to know what people want and dont.

Originally posted by Neurotic Panda:

AoE has a huge following and they know this game will sell faster then anything.

So had Empire Earth, C&C and Dawn of War where fan base was counted in millions, but were are those franchises now, after they were forced into an alienating Casual-E-Sports?

Originally posted by GenSec39:

Originally posted by Neurotic Panda:

If you don't like the game or the direction its headed... then simply don't play it. my god. its not a hard concept.

Mmmm, our favourite "don't like it - don't buy it" narrative. It even worked well in the past, right?

Originally posted by Neurotic Panda:

Do you think Microsoft or the devs of this game/franchise are going to come to steam, read a bunch of whining and moaning about their new game and say.. YUP. cancel all development lets do what the whiners on the steam forums want.

Indeed, why would they listen to fans, who were supporting this francise before these new developers were even born? - ridiculous. I heard the same narrative before the release of DoW 3, that they are targeting "wider audience" so "old whinners" may shut up. S-so, how is that "wider audience" supporting DoW3 atm?

+1

It just feels for the fans, like something is take away form them.
DoW3 is a very good example how not to continue a franchise.

We had a very nice Franchise like Age of Empires,
called Empire Earth, but it was ruined with the third title.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVMti68r6oU

And let me tell the tragedy of Command & Conquer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlIkGlTMUNE

A franchise should be in touché what people want.

[Neurotic Panda]

Originally posted by GenSec39:

Mmmm, our favourite "don't like it - don't buy it" narrative. It even worked well in the past, right?

This always makes me smile. Its a 'gamer' thing and i don't know why. Something Psychological i'm sure.

You literally make this decision every day of your life countless times. Almost every human does. I don't like big macs, therefore i don't buy big macs. I don't like the look of that certain shirt, therefore i don't buy it. I don't like the look of the movie or the actors, therefore i don't buy it.

I don't then go onto those companies forums or a 3rd party forum and moan all day about how much Mcdonalds fails and is hot trash because the big mac is awful. I simply don't buy it. I don't go to Kohl's or whomever's website and moan all day and post after post about how that shirt they are selling is utter trash and is gonna bankrupt them if them don't stop selling it. No i just simply don't buy it.. like you i'm sure.

Gamers cant do that. For some reason they think. OMG.. Microsoft will do my bidding if i Post my 'hate' 'rants' and 'opinions' on steam all day long. Then they'll see and change their graphics for me, and the units for me, and the game play for me, etc etc.

Nah. not gonna happen.

Why cant most gamers just simply.. not buy the game and move along. not a big deal. It's simple and you do it daily for everything else in your life. It's not a town hall event.

Like i said you make this 'don't like it, don't buy it' choice everyday of your life more than likely and think nothing about it. Why is a GAME different?.. You need food to eat and live lol.. it's more important than a game. but i'd bet you aren't blowing up you local grocery store or restaurants about why you dislike this or that or why you don't purchase this or that..Or give them your opinions daily about how they could run their business better. Why do gamers do this with games?

Next time your at a grocery store and buy Velveeta over Kraft cheese. let the world know. Everyday. post on a 3rd party food forum about why Kraft fails and Velveeta is the real cheese. I bet Kraft listens.

Do this for EVERY product decision you make going forward everyday. You wouldn't even think about it. you'd laugh and say.. ahah ok that's dumb.. than why do it for games? Food keeps you alive, clothing as well. bet you aren't on the forums telling these companies how to 'run' their business and make product. why are games different? Why do gamers feel entitled to 'tell' game developers how to make their product? or make it 'better'. Do you tell Levi's how to make jeans better? no? why not?

interesting question honestly and you could really plug any product/service/etc into it.

Seriously though. MS better listen to me and change the graphics to what I want, and and.. I want no e-sports, and and I want bigger castles, and and i don't want it casual friendly, and and i want... MOAR how I want it to be... or else this game will fail and MS will go bankrupt.. muahaha.

k.

Course some people ( if MS did go bankrupt) would be on here in all caps. See i told you so. its cuz they didn't listen to my ideas about AoE4. thats what did it. I told them, I told MS how to run their company and make software. See, they should of listened to me... i told them.. i was right ahahaha memememe.

And there is just no arguing/debating people like that because no matter what, they are always correct in their own (closed) minds.

anyways. long rant lol.. good day

[....]

Originally posted by Neurotic Panda:

This always makes me smile. Its a 'gamer' thing and i don't know why. Something Psychological i'm sure.

I think it doesnt make sense to discuss furhter with you i wont even read the rest of your post because its probably based on the same false premise. You seem to fail to realize that there is a difference between buying stuff for your hobby and special game series you care about and buying a hamburger because you are hungry ...

If you want an example not from gaming - think about your favourite sports-team. The time you like with the players you like where you bought a ticket for every game since you were little and fan articles suddenly announces to change some of the main players - change their logo or even drop some of the sports you liked them for. Its only natural to voice your opinion if you care about something.

Or lets take another exmaple - you are a huge fan of tv-show A since many years. All of a sudden in Season 18 they change everything to something that doesnt make sense at all. Sure people - and you aswell would probably complain because you are passionate about your hobbies and favourite shows.


But if your into psychology - lets try to explain weird behaviour (i dont even understand your motivation in this thread) - you try to defend a brand from any critique - for whatever weird reason - i mean what do you even have to loose? In the worst case you get a better looking game? I think this article is actually interresting:

https://www.gamesradar.com/psychology-fanboys-explained-professional/

I'm not even sure what your motivation is - on the one hand you tell others to simply not buy/participate if they dislike something - on the other hand you are the one constantly trying to tell others that they arent allowed to voice their opinion because you dislike it? In your own personal logic - wouldnt it be logical to simply neither read nor reply in this thread?

Next you state an example - thinking its a good one - about buying or not buying burgers and stating this is a gaming-only thing - when in reality this is the same with every hobby on this planet. I even gave you an example above.

People voicing their opinion actually means they do care. Its the same in real life - if you are about to do something bad in real life (like a bad financial investment) - friends telling you its a bad decision and telling you why they think that actually means they do care - if they just stay silent because they dissagree thats actually not a good thing. Sure that doesnt mean they are right - but i think its important to state ones opinion at a point in time where it isnt too late. Lets be serious regarding the game - in reality they can ignore all opinions posted now - and if they dont ignore them - the worst thing that could happen is that the game will look better ...

What do you even hope to achieve with defending a brand against valid criticism that would at worst make the game look better?

[GenSec39]

Originally posted by Neurotic Panda:

This always makes me smile. Its a 'gamer' thing and i don't know why. Something Psychological i'm sure.

After you started to stress that 'gamer' part, you totally lost all credibility, twitter hermit. As to the rest of your touching passage...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GgflscOmW8

[N'Zoth]

I don’t understand Relic’s obsession with being the next big Esports game maker.... is there A lot of money in it for them or something? They wanna be Starcraft 2 or League of legends so bad they’ve literally already killed one beloved franchise. Now they’re bringing the executioner axe to the next one.
When your goal is to make “Everyone your audience” you get no one. Starcraft 2 and Lol were huge hits not because everyone could play them at high levels, the exact opposite actually.

[Grimwear]

I hope it's not for a casual e-sports audience. People tend to ignore it but rts games should not be made for a multiplayer audience. They should not be made for hardcore people. The vast majority of your player base are single player, slow players. People who like to turtle, make bases, build armies, then swarm. Is it fun watching pro players with build orders and raiding? Yes. But is that your playing audience? No.

By that logic, balance (the thing people are most vocal about) is not most important. When I play aoe2 I literally pick my faction based on what the unique unit does because it's cool. I'd much rather play an unbalanced game with lots of races than a small balanced one. It's the reason I play DOW1 so much. Because I have so many options to pick from. Can I make 2 full armies with Necrons? Yep. Can I just spam stealthed units with Chaos? Yep. Is it OP in multiplayer? I have no clue I've literally never played online. And the majority of your audience hasn't either.

[N'Zoth]

Originally posted by Grimwear:

I hope it's not for a casual e-sports audience. People tend to ignore it but rts games should not be made for a multiplayer audience. They should not be made for hardcore people. The vast majority of your player base are single player, slow players. People who like to turtle, make bases, build armies, then swarm. Is it fun watching pro players with build orders and raiding? Yes. But is that your playing audience? No.

By that logic, balance (the thing people are most vocal about) is not most important. When I play aoe2 I literally pick my faction based on what the unique unit does because it's cool. I'd much rather play an unbalanced game with lots of races than a small balanced one. It's the reason I play DOW1 so much. Because I have so many options to pick from. Can I make 2 full armies with Necrons? Yep. Can I just spam stealthed units with Chaos? Yep. Is it OP in multiplayer? I have no clue I've literally never played online. And the majority of your audience hasn't either.

Sadly it looks like that’s the road that they’ve chosen to go down. It didn’t work for DoW3 but theyll make it work for AoE4 is probably what they say to each other.
If you listen to the interview they’re making this game where it can be played on a toaster essentially and they’re making it so anyone can play it, and it’s aimed at the Esports crowd. I don’t usually hear developers talk like that. Their goal is usually to make a good game and if esports happens it happens but that seems to be their goal.

Basically the game is mega casual now.

[Who_ci]

Originally posted by Grimwear:

I hope it's not for a casual e-sports audience. People tend to ignore it but rts games should not be made for a multiplayer audience. They should not be made for hardcore people. The vast majority of your player base are single player, slow players. People who like to turtle, make bases, build armies, then swarm. Is it fun watching pro players with build orders and raiding? Yes. But is that your playing audience? No.

By that logic, balance (the thing people are most vocal about) is not most important. When I play aoe2 I literally pick my faction based on what the unique unit does because it's cool. I'd much rather play an unbalanced game with lots of races than a small balanced one. It's the reason I play DOW1 so much. Because I have so many options to pick from. Can I make 2 full armies with Necrons? Yep. Can I just spam stealthed units with Chaos? Yep. Is it OP in multiplayer? I have no clue I've literally never played online. And the majority of your audience hasn't either.

I totally agree with you, they should focus on singleplayer and add immersive mechanics to feel the medieval atmosphere. But the problem of addind those mechanics is that pro players can't micro the units or whatever and at the end developers avoid it because is not "e-sports friendly".

[N'Zoth]

To expand on that, specifically in the Esports interview they were talking about “the historical vision” of the game had to be changed. Because esports testers said units weren’t responsive or fast enough to micro so they didn’t like them. So they had to make the units “fit” that standard. I really felt like they took the Esports opinion first, and then asked hardcore fans of Aoe what they thought, but put more importance on the esports side of things.

[Who_ci]

Originally posted by N'Zoth:

To expand on that, specifically in the Esports interview they were talking about “the historical vision” of the game had to be changed. Because esports testers said units weren’t responsive or fast enough to micro so they didn’t like them. So they had to make the units “fit” that standard. I really felt like they took the Esports opinion first, and then asked hardcore fans of Aoe what they thought, but put more importance on the esports side of things.

yikes, it can't be true....

[Who_ci]

This game has to much potential.... i can't believe they are going to screw the mechanics.
I was hoping to see real cavarly charges that stuns units to the ground, siege moved by crowds, more units formations...
But i guess we are not going to see anything of this.

[N'Zoth]

Originally posted by Who_ci:

Originally posted by N'Zoth:

To expand on that, specifically in the Esports interview they were talking about “the historical vision” of the game had to be changed. Because esports testers said units weren’t responsive or fast enough to micro so they didn’t like them. So they had to make the units “fit” that standard. I really felt like they took the Esports opinion first, and then asked hardcore fans of Aoe what they thought, but put more importance on the esports side of things.

yikes, it can't be true....

https://youtu.be/hKi60JBvwaY