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You can counter it either by
A: the obvious, don't let them get relics.
B: get control of neutral golds. If you have gold as Chinese, your bombards are basically uncounterable, your hand cannons are quiet good, fire lancers are incredible at raiding and trade well into most units with low gold (especially vs HRE cause their spears are bugged so they can't stop the charge), and all your other units are better with dynasty. As long as you are not out of gold, you should beat them (and remember those neutral golds give +20% for you with an imp official).
So lets say you let them get relics. There's 1 of 2 things you can do.
A: Be boring. Just spam bombards safely at home, get a bombard doomstack, and there's not much HRE can do about it. Your bombards beat even their culverins, you can just throw a bunch of horsemen/spears in front to conserve gold (you don't really need to specifically counter his units, bombards do plenty of damage vs everything), and with yuan dynasty (or ming) your spearmen/horsemen/fire lancers can easily snipe their siege if they don't have supporting units while yours is just too tanky/fast to go down easily. If they spam a bunch of infantry add in a few nest of bees too and just roll over them with your unstoppable siege deathball. If you get map control, remember that you can wall any map control you secure off and it will force your opponent to commit several bombards just to take back a sacred site or neutral gold.
B: be interesting. Abuse the mobility of yuan dynasty palace guard lancer horsemen or fire lancers to raid them to death. Go ming dynasty and add grenadiers with maybe just a few springalds/bombards added on to snipe his siege. Make an army of zhuge nu + crossbow with a bunch of scouts/springalds/fire lancers to snipe siege. Your compositions are honestly still better than theirs without bombards because you have access to several extra units and the dynasty bonus, so long as you don't take direct engagements with palace guard/knights into their maa.
I don't think 2 tc/song builds are currently meta, but if you do choose to go for a greedy build your eco will get ahead of them and you will likely beat them late. However I would consider this to be risky, because if they push you in early castle with relics you could have issues defending, and if you don't push them and they go fast imperial they will catch back up in eco.
As for the other direction of trying to deny relics, pro scouts into castle age tends to be a good strategy across a lot of civs. IF the HRE player goes straight castle age, they'll probably be slightly ahead to castle and it might be hard to deny their first prelate or 2 (you can with scouts if they're unprotected but its pretty slow), so they'll probably get a couple relics. But, you get 4 hunts, just go kill them because they're gonna have to transition to berries or farms and you have food for years.
On the other hand if they go for something like pro scouts into castle age too, you get pro scouts before them, and you'll actually likely get castle slightly faster as well. If you add in a 1-2 horsemen on the way to castle (or maybe spears, they have a stables too) just to make sure they can't camp the relics before they're up, and put scouts on the relics to see him coming, you can probably deny them from getting 3 and then add in lancers or palace guard. Lancers currently is the better option because their spears are bugged, although that's kind of lame.
If you can get 3 relics to 2, you'll be around even with them in late game passive gold eco with taxes added in, but all your units are better than theirs once you get dynasties (except for maa vs palace guard, and even then palace guard are only worse in the armor vs armor).
Oh and its kind of lame (not the strat itself but the fact the strats is so strong because HRE is bugged), but if you go mass fire lancer they can't really counter it because their spears are bugged. No blocking the charge for them.
TLDR: no they are not the perfect Chinese counter.
There's this very straightforward start with HRE: fast feudal => fast castle (using prelates eco + market trading) => snatch relics to feed Regnitz => fast imperial making use of the gold trickle and cheaper Palace of Swaggia => actually starting to play
Should HRE go this way however, he becomes passive and vulnerable for the first 10 minutes or so. An opposite to this is a feudal all-innin HRE, which realizes relics play probably not gonna work (against Rus, for example), so he goes Meinwerk and Burgrave and does a strong m@a-powered ram push.
Now when Chinese bombards eventually get nerfed, you still have tons of options like Handcannoneers, Nest of Bees, Fire Lancer or maybe even Grenadiers if the game permits it.
I barely see them, and that's 4v4. I doubt many 1v1 players even know how Grenadiers look like. Chinese will be wiped out in so many horrible ways before they come online, should they decide to bank upon it. In many ways going Ming is like going wonder.
Everything else is fine, but with a caveat:
- handcannonners are just your regular ones with 20% better range, which realistically won't boost their value much aside from a couple niche scenarios, like dueling Streltsy or shooting from a wall;
- nests of bugs either need to be seriously blobbed or intensely microed (attack ground) to get value from, right now they're just worse mangonels;
- cancer lancers are good in team games, because there are a lot of things happening at the same time and people tend to get distracted (also, they rarely bother building walls). I don't see someone reliably getting value out them otherwise.
Besides the obvious Mongols that pretty much can exploit EVERY other civ's weakness, I actually think HRE has a better shot than most at beating Imperial age China, actually.
It's really simple, as far as I'm concerned:
Nest Of Bees is a worse mangonel that the Chinese must nevertheless start spamming the moment HRE begins to vomit infantry, since it is its only AOE source to delete infantry with in castle and imperial age, barring the Fire Lancer (which I don't use in HRE/Delhi matchups until the spear brace bug is fixed, it's too damn easy otherwise) and the Grenadier.
The Grenadier is not only as expensive as a Handcannoneer if built outside the Spirit way, but it also requires going to imperial age twice. I would assume you already lost if you can't apply enough pressure for the chinese to stay at either Song/Yuan dynasty.
As a mostly Chinese main, I've found issues dealing with HRE in all kinds of maps, including island ones.
Palace Guard is a good meaty frontline, until you're fighting HRE spamming Landshreks that will lawnmower it, leaving their siege exposed...
The early prelate/Aachen economy allows HRE to boom really, really hard on water. Their Feudal ship is stronger than China's and they actually get the un-nerfed version of the French Hulk in Castle age, meaning that if HRE manages to age up before you can to castle age on an island map you're going to basically have to face pre-patch France, not to mention the possibility HRE has of putting relics into docks, making said hulks even stronger.
Hybrid maps allow HRE to again keep up with China in booming eco, especially if they got the prelate or the chapel buffing wood gathering allowing them to pump out fishing boats on multiple bodies on water. It also allows HRE to form a mean, MEAN castle age timing push using the buffed up MAA, rams and a choice between Horsemen and springs-siege behind them.
Land maps allow HRE to use the Aachen buffs to their full potential in order to bring in deer hunts from around the map to the spots in which vills gather resources 40% faster still. It's close to impossible to stop, as you know, and HRE will also likely go to a fast castle and begin harassing you with cavalry, since they already got a stable out, while they gather all the relics mostly undisturbed against a Chinese enemy that is really incentivized to boom as hard as it can.
China can of course try and put sticks in the gears of HRE, but it's not as great offensively as other factions unless it spends more resources, or until they hit Castle. I've gone for professional scouts into horsemen harass against HRE while playing china and you usually can't get enough traction to stop them all that much before they skyrocket to castle age within 10-11 minutes anyway, at which point they'll be on the defensive with an eco that would have comparatively looked better if they did not commit to aggression.
As for land though, HRE pro scouts is not hard to stop. You just get it faster than them, and then you get castle faster than them as well. You can basically mirror what HRE do, but because you have imp officials to supervise out scouts and the pro scouts upgrade (and because your age up goes faster), you can be like 50 seconds faster than them, which is enough to make it so you get 2.5 hunts and they get 1.5. You'll still be castle age as fast or even faster (officials buff a tiny bit less than acchen chapel, but again Chinese castle age builds faster and you can add a bit of tax to your gold income). This should give you a lead and give the opportunity to perhaps even keep them to 1-2 relics (they might get 3 eventually but you can make it tough at the very least).
Also part of the problem is that you're limiting yourself from one of China's best late game units because of a bug. Choosing to do so might make you a more respectable player, but it doesn't make HRE any better when most other players aren't gonna do so. Its really hard not to abuse HRE/Delhi spears tbh, as even just like fast castle into knights abuses their spears. Personally, I hate siege spamming, I don't want to do myself even on Chinese, so if an HRE player tries to fight me with units I've only got one non siege counter unit, and that's the fire lancer. Part of the reason I play Chinese is so I have access to a non siege siege counter. I'd give it up against unit spam for the sake of fairness but if an HRE player gets over 3 bombards I just don't feel there's another choice.
China is probably the best Castle-Imperial age civ to play on water maps tbh, besides Mongols, which also both get the War Junk and the Bao Chuan
Their War Junk litterally gets 3 to fire with in Castle age if you spin to win (it's also noticeably more agile than Hulks, it also trades upwards with any other castle age ship in the game, since it's not even that expensive compared to the others.
Bao Chuan is disgusting. It's by far the strongest imperial ship in the game and that's BEFORE it gets the Pyrotechnics technology.
I was on Warring Islands against French, I managed to drive off his hulks with 3 docks pumping out Junks almost non-stop, then I got to castle age before him and wiped his entire fleet with demo ships and fully upgraded War Junks, while my Junks went around the map looking for his fishing ships.
He still had managed to get to one of the middle islands (there's 2 sister islands in the middle, holding one of the two only sacred sites each) and had a castle in there. Too bad I got to Imperial age and got 3 Bao Chuans out.
They outrange everything but the Berkshire Palace or Trebuchets in the game and have the best DPS out of all units in the game against virtually anything. I deleted the two castles he managed to build in that island, colonized it myself with a single castle and a lot of fortified outposts with cannon emplacements around it in order to see it coming, while at the same time building a barracks or two in there to spam spears.
He tried multiple times to get on either of those two islands, he really did, but the Bao Chuans had SO MUCH RANGE that I could litterally part them in-between the two islands and I just had to beach them on either side to shoot at whatever force he tried to land in there.
I've got my gripes with island maps (namely the endless raid cheese you can partake in, namely with scouts, knights or fire lancers) but China is really good in those. You could even try playing fully defensive in feudal by building outposts and the barbican of the sun near your docks that will garrison fishing ships when under attack, only to come out in Castle Age with three War Junks/Demo Ships at a time to wreck stuff with.
I also suggest you to follow the build order Grubby designed for China on water maps, it's quite strong, since it allows you to get 3 Junks out three docks at the 6:30 minute mark very reliably!
https://youtu.be/umsQ_-bF0Wk?t=4530
And yes, Fire Lancers against Delhi or HRE is legit disgusting right now, they more or less have to vomit out stone walls to even have a chance of surviving. Looking forward to using them once their counter actually works as intended.
Back on topic tough, HRE infantry will be China's Cryptonite even against players that will resort to anything in order to win once spears are fixed (and maybe even after the Nest of Bees works properly, provided things like the Culverin become viable over the Springald).
I've indeed practiced with Professional Scout rushes playing china enough to get if before HRE, so what you say about it is true, but Prelates provide exactly double the buffs to gathering the IO does (The prelate gives +40% gather while IO magically generates +20% res at every drop-offs) and while they will run out of res faster that won't be enough to beat them to getting to castle age from personal experience.
I tend to get a second Town Center, then Song Dynasty and then Castle Age against HRE (after I get Professional Scouts on land maps, ofc) to get a better eco than their Aachen one early on so I can keep pressuring them instead of going to castle right away, I feel that prevents HRE from just coming in and deleting me with a MAA+RAM+Horseman push a lot better than going to castle right away, due to the Nest Of Bees being horrible.
With professional scouts, obviously travel time is pretty short. But you also have to account for the fact that extremely fast gathering means they'll run out quite quickly. Yes you won't get to castle age faster because of that, but you shouldn't be behind (since your castle age builds faster and the fact that imp officials collect tax needs to be considered as well), and your eco will be better in early castle (especially once HRE's food starts running out if you took over half the hunt, they need to build extra prelates to go collect relics, and you can suprervise out some early castle age knights rather than needing multiple stables). So you should be able to build maybe 1-2 horsemen in transition to camp the relics, then build like 2-3 knights and just sit one on each relic, delay them, and if you delay them by enough you can just take the relics yourself. High apm but keep in ind if the HRE player is low apm they're gonna take the relics later than they theoretically could too or forget to bring any support and lose their prelate to 1 knight.
The imperial official on the other hand, being drop off amount, is actually the full 20%, and means you get 20% more resources total out of the hunt.
I do think its a good matchup for HRE in the sense that they're a low tier civ vs Chinese being a high tier civ, and yet perform fine in the matchup. But I don't think its HRE favored. I think its like a 50/50 matchup, one you would want in a tournament (as its a weaker civ beating a stronger civ) but on ladder you'd rather just be rus or mongols against Chinese.
You could also theoretically go for like song dynasty and/or 2nd tc, then try to deny relics with horsemen+spearmen, and delay relics long enough to get a much better eco.
Yeah, that's what I realised too about walling the relics after the 2nd game.
In terms of booming behind Song for the first game, I did exactly that. We both turtled. So it was a full strength Chinese vs HRE late game when nearly all our researches were completed. 48 min game.
Like I said what I found was that even though I would win from army composition engagements late game, but HRE can afford to throw away gold units with 3 relics, I didn't know how their landmarks work. If I lose my gold units from his gold unit zerging then I was left with spearmen and archers and horseman. He had 30 military buildings up pumping units and I had about 8, this is also another reason why i lost now come to think about it. It was like zombie apocalypse, gold units just kept coming and wear out my firelancers bombards, nest of bees...etc