The HRE is a straight upgrade over the English

[M1A2C Abrams]

Anything the English can do the HRE does way better. There's simply no reason currently to play as the English.

[Cacomistle]

Irrelephant původně napsal:

M1A2C Abrams původně napsal:

The English were playing optimally. Their economic production was too slow and they didn't have the ability to effectively counter his army which was larger due to his lower villager count and more effective in the imperial age due to his unique upgrades.

Saying the pros haven't figured out a meta for HRE yet just means I am smarter than "the pros" since I have already figure it out.

Hmmmm I can't seem to find you on the AOE 4 leaderboards, have you played against any players or is the board bugged?

Its bugged.

Just like relics are bugged. The tooltip says 300 gold per minute which is about 6 vills or so worth of gold, but apparently its actually 17 villagers worth.

M1A2C Abrams původně napsal:

Which was my exact point earlier about why the HRE is superior. It takes 17 villagers to produce as much gold as a single relic for the HRE and Turin had 3 relics.

And just like mangudai are bugged. They say they do 7/9/10 damage against maa 2/3/4/5 pierce armor, but the tooltip is wrong. They actually only deal 1 damage.

M1A2C Abrams původně napsal:

the mangudai can kite the HRE MAA but they only do 1 damage per shot so the MAA can effectively ignore them, force them into a wall or the HRE can build their own archers or use siege to counter them.
.

They really need to fix the bugs in this game. I mean they can't even get the names of players right. We all know Abrams won genesis but the stupid broken in game UI said it was some guy named TheViper. What are the devs even doing? Showed the civs wrong too cause it kept saying he picked English instead of HRE.

[Antpile]

Irrelephant původně napsal:

M1A2C Abrams původně napsal:

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Anonymous-Authority This is your argument.

The "pros" are not a monolithic block and if they were so good then they would recognize that this game is very well balanced rather than ranking civilizations based on falsely developed tiers.

C'mon man don't play coy you know full well which pros he's talking about and all of them have made full disclaimers that the tier lists are mostly just early thoughts and that the game is nowhere near figured out. What's good today might not be good in 6 months time as people figure out how to counter certain things.
Having said that I would like to see the monastery moved to age 2 with a resource discount, the prelate able to pickup relics in age 2 and for ♥♥♥♥♥ sake give the prelate a mount.

Oh god. Age 2 relic pick ups would be so incredibly broken on any civ, but most definitely HRE.

[Cacomistle]

Antpile původně napsal:

Irrelephant původně napsal:

C'mon man don't play coy you know full well which pros he's talking about and all of them have made full disclaimers that the tier lists are mostly just early thoughts and that the game is nowhere near figured out. What's good today might not be good in 6 months time as people figure out how to counter certain things.
Having said that I would like to see the monastery moved to age 2 with a resource discount, the prelate able to pickup relics in age 2 and for ♥♥♥♥♥ sake give the prelate a mount.

Oh god. Age 2 relic pick ups would be so incredibly broken on any civ, but most definitely HRE.

Well I wouldn't say on any civ. Because if you were playing against HRE/Delhi they'd have all the relics before your first monk even came out.

[M1A2C Abrams]

Cacomistle původně napsal:

Irrelephant původně napsal:

Hmmmm I can't seem to find you on the AOE 4 leaderboards, have you played against any players or is the board bugged?

Its bugged.

Just like relics are bugged. The tooltip says 300 gold per minute which is about 6 vills or so worth of gold, but apparently its actually 17 villagers worth.

M1A2C Abrams původně napsal:

Which was my exact point earlier about why the HRE is superior. It takes 17 villagers to produce as much gold as a single relic for the HRE and Turin had 3 relics.

And just like mangudai are bugged. They say they do 7/9/10 damage against maa 2/3/4/5 pierce armor, but the tooltip is wrong. They actually only deal 1 damage.

M1A2C Abrams původně napsal:

the mangudai can kite the HRE MAA but they only do 1 damage per shot so the MAA can effectively ignore them, force them into a wall or the HRE can build their own archers or use siege to counter them.
.

They really need to fix the bugs in this game. I mean they can't even get the names of players right. We all know Abrams won genesis but the stupid broken in game UI said it was some guy named TheViper. What are the devs even doing?

It's 17 villagers because enclosures provide 18 gold a minute per farm.

[Cacomistle]

M1A2C Abrams původně napsal:

Cacomistle původně napsal:

Its bugged.

Just like relics are bugged. The tooltip says 300 gold per minute which is about 6 vills or so worth of gold, but apparently its actually 17 villagers worth.


And just like mangudai are bugged. They say they do 7/9/10 damage against maa 2/3/4/5 pierce armor, but the tooltip is wrong. They actually only deal 1 damage.




They really need to fix the bugs in this game. I mean they can't even get the names of players right. We all know Abrams won genesis but the stupid broken in game UI said it was some guy named TheViper. What are the devs even doing?

It's 17 villagers because enclosures provide 18 gold a minute per farm.

Oh ok that actually makes sense, you were referring to enclosures and not gold mining. You didn't specify that but I should have picked that up from the context cause you've mentioned it before.

Other 2 are still wrong though. And its not like English wouldn't have at least 17 farmers anyways.

[M1A2C Abrams]

Cacomistle původně napsal:

M1A2C Abrams původně napsal:

It's 17 villagers because enclosures provide 18 gold a minute per farm.

Oh ok that actually makes sense, you were referring to enclosures and not gold mining. You didn't specify that but I should have picked that up from the context cause you've mentioned it before.

Other 2 are still wrong though. And its not like English wouldn't have at least 17 farmers anyways.

to match the free gold output of the HRE with 3 relics the English player would need to have 40 farmers on top of 2 relics. that means the HRE has 40 more population slots they can use to either overpower the enemy military or boost their production in other areas with their villagers.

[Antpile]

M1A2C Abrams původně napsal:

HappyThoughts původně napsal:

In the very match you linked, Turin talks about how troublesome the English archers are, and how annoying they are to deal with. There's a reason he only started winning once the gold mines started to run dry. He managed to build a massive siege difference. The MAA did not win him the game. Mangonels, Springalds, and Cannons did the job, and the English player didn't have enough ressources to counter so late in the game.

And matchmaking isn't perfect from the get go, it takes a while to settle at your level, and few people display the same level of skill on every civ.

PS: Wrote the message before your edit. No, the English did not play flawlessly, just as Turin didn't. But Turin played a better game.

He is annoyed by the archers because he isn't playing correctly. None of his units are upgraded to elite status from the imperial age so their health and damage is vastly reduced compared to the Elite Longbowmen.

He has stables but didn't produce knights even though they have twice the health and faster movement speed which would allow him to easily roll over the longbowmen because he got tunnel vision. Instead he tried to produce horsemen which take bonus damage from longbowmen.

Also if enclosures were so good then the English should have been unaffected by the loss of gold mines. On top of the fact that Longbowmen don't even use gold because the English didn't have a sustainable gold source and were instead spamming trash units to try and defeat a gold heavy army. If enclosures were so much better the English would be able to use handcannons or at least crossbows as their line infantry instead of longbows.

HRE struggles for the same reasons China does. Econ based on this special unit is troublesome compared to just baked in racial benefits. As a China main, I can attest to how frustrating it is to have someone snipe an imperial official during a raid. Just like prelates, they not only cost more than a villager, but take up the build time of a vill. So it hurts. Compared to other civs that have no such weakness.

But the main issue both of these civs have is a weak t2, which is when most games are decided. You'll notice that all the top civs have good ways to apply a lot of pressure in t2, and all the bottom tier civs do not.

China and HRE specifically lack anything T2 to pressure the enemy. China is worse off than HRE due to no MAA, but MAA are slow. MAA can't really pressure or raid, they can only all in. So while HRE has a pretty decent MAA + ram timing attack in t2, they have no advantage to just sort of harassing and raiding to score a few vill kills and tax your opponents APM/attention.

England longbows, on the other hand, are great at sniping a vill here and there over the trees or something. England also has the castle network and the town hall that shoots two arrows by default to help hold off enemy harassment. So they can harass you, fall back, and be pretty risky to counter harass.

Then there's the mid tier factions like Delhi and Abassid. These guys lack the ability to put on pressure as well, but they have their own ways to sort of force the opponent to react to you. With Aba, you are always worried about a ram attack since they don't even need a blacksmith to be able to do it. With Delhi, they'll take sacred sites and force you to come out and react to their game instead of being able to sit back and do what you wanted. Neither method is as good as having a good way to raid enemy vills, but it's better than nothing.

And nothing is what HRE and China have in t2. They have to play defensive or try to go all in. Those are their only two options, and with proper scouting it isn't hard to read which one they are planning as you do your thing with your stronger faction to pressure, harass, and otherwise mess with their game plan.

And, playing defense sucks. If you play perfect defense, you break even with your opponent. If they manage to disrupt your economy even a little bit or get some vills, you are behind while they were free to macro away unhindered. This goes double for the French who can pressure the crap out of you to keep you on one base while they sit back on one base as well, getting ahead in vills simply because they are French.

[Harris]

M1A2C Abrams původně napsal:

Instead he tried to produce horsemen which take bonus damage from longbowmen.

No, no they don't. Longbowmen get bonus damage against light melee infantry, and there's precisely two light melee infantry units right now:
- spearmen
- landsknechts

While they deal solid damage to horsemen, other archers and crossbowmen and, of course, vills, that simply comes from those units having little to no ranged armor while longbows themselves having a solid fire rate.

Moreover, I discovered building horsemen is a solid choice as English for two reasons:

1) that's one of the few units that doesn't get any civ-specific boni, so you're not at a disadvantage for not being a cavalry civ (okay, French's Biology gives a bit more hp, but that's that)

2) their cost of 100 food 20 wood ties extremely well into English economy, where superior farms give you so much food you simply don't know what to do with. This allows you to spam armies of horsemen for some cheap raiding and such. Basically Mongol scout rush, but you can afford engagements.

Antpile původně napsal:

And nothing is what HRE and China have in t2. They have to play defensive or try to go all in.

China is a beast in team games, its weak early game compensated with how superior they are in Imperial. They are a bit like French in that they can do whatever they want, and do it well.

They can go on offense and raid you with FIre Lancers, while their superior siege engines will break your defenses.

If something goes wrong, they can mount the best defense in the game bar none. Basically after today's game I'm positive Chinese is #1 for defense, and English and HRE are not even close. So what I had to deal with today:
- 100% faster building speed makes sure they'll have their wonder online before you, forcing you to attack which is already a huge disadvantage of and in itself;
- age 4 landmark DOUBLES their stone walls hp, and with University upgrade you are looking at 9-10k hp, basically TRIPLE one. This is insane how much time they'll make you waste trying to break through several layers of walls like that;
- a mixed army of fire lancers, grenadiers and their mangonels on steroids hard counters any direct assault, armor or not.

[Antpile]

Harris původně napsal:

Antpile původně napsal:

And nothing is what HRE and China have in t2. They have to play defensive or try to go all in.

China is a beast in team games, its weak early game compensated with how superior they are in Imperial. They are a bit like French in that they can do whatever they want, and do it well.

They can go on offense and raid you with FIre Lancers, while their superior siege engines will break your defenses.

If something goes wrong, they can mount the best defense in the game bar none. Basically after today's game I'm positive Chinese is #1 for defense, and English and HRE are not even close. So what I had to deal with today:
- 100% faster building speed makes sure they'll have their wonder online before you, forcing you to attack which is already a huge disadvantage of and in itself;
- age 4 landmark DOUBLES their stone walls hp, and with University upgrade you are looking at 9-10k hp, basically TRIPLE one. This is insane how much time they'll make you waste trying to break through several layers of walls like that;
- a mixed army of fire lancers, grenadiers and their mangonels on steroids hard counters any direct assault, armor or not.

I see a lot of issues with... all of this.

Fire lancers are... okayish. They are basically horseman, but they do better damage to buildings/siege and can do splash damage on the charge. But they are SQUISHY. So squishy. They cannot be used in battle, for the most part, because they'll all be dead in seconds to pretty much anything. Raiding villagers and buildings on the edges is their best play.

I've tried using them to get mangonels or something by flanking, but any archers or xbows in that mass will just gut them in seconds. I end up losing 20-30 fire lancers to get maybe 1 or 2 mangonels. Not worth. Plus, they are a dynasty unit, which means extra investment required just to unlock them.

And are you claiming they have the best defense because they can crank up the hp of stone walls? England will be pounding you with springalds that shoot 25% more often from under the cover fire of castles. HRE can put a relic in a castle to buff pretty much everything about it. It shoots further, does more damage, takes less damage, and I think gets more hp or armor as well. We're talking significantly stronger. China's only advantage on the defense is that they build things faster and their arrow slit outposts shoot hand cannons that can actually hurt knights in age 2.

Mangonels on steroids? I've never heard anyone good at the game say good things about the nest of bees. They are slower. They have less range. They do their damage slowly over time instead of just chunking your army in 1 second. They cost more. The only good thing about nest of bees is that they track moving targets a bit better, where a mango can miss completely if you are zig zagging decently fast units.

As soon as you mentioned building a wonder, I knew we weren't talking about competitive games. First, we can't compare balance in a 4v4. It's a big chaotic mess by nature. 1v1 is where we can tell balance. MAYBE 2v2 where there might be certain civs that work well in combination with another, but then we're talking balance specifically pertaining to 2v2. 1v1 is where there is the least amount of variables so we can draw some real conclusions.

But I'd imagine even in 4v4, if you have 3000 of all resources to blow, you were probably winning anyway. If i'm floating 3000 of each in a 1v1, I fully expect my opponent to be running me over with 12000 resources worth of units that I didn't buy. If I'm that much richer than him and not dead, i was clearly winning by a mile already and the wonder is unnecessary. Especially since one of China's actual strengths right now is having crazy good clocktower bombards. So busting through your opponent's defenses in age 4 should be one of the few things China is good at right now.

And grenadiers. Grenadiers are crazy good. I mean, they are basically age 5 units since you have to dynasty up in age iv, but man oh man do they end games if you do get them. But some bombards covered by grenadiers will solve any problem in the game as it stands.

But all of this is a moot point. You can't have a civ that is strong only if they survive to the very latest of late game. China is weaksauce for the first 10 minutes or so. Their special units kind of blow, except the grenadier. They have no econ benefits except the imperial officer, which doesn't buff our econ all that much and becomes a target for the enemy raiding us with knights 5 minutes into the game. I can't snipe the French player's faster villager production, cheaper drop off points, cheaper econ upgrades, or free melee damage upgrades. But he can snipe my 20% increase to dropped off resources. Or just force me to garrison it.

Don't get me wrong. I main China. I really really want them to be viable. They just aren't at the moment.

[Wese]

Harris původně napsal:

English main here.

M1A2C Abrams původně napsal:

There's simply no reason currently to play as the English.

Adressing the elephant in the room, the OP has to be taken with not a grain, but with a truck of salt, as he's clearly biased against English and has been that way even before release. With that out of the way, let's talk English.

1) Longbowmen

They are a niche unit with a niche use - they only get bonus damage against light infantry, which is spearmen and HRE landsknects. The former is anti-cavalry unit, and you are not likely to field any cavalry since you've no boni towards them (however, longbowmen+knights composition can be interesting). And the latter is trash and nobody uses them right now since they die too fast for their cost and maa are better overall. Otherwise longbowmen can be decent against any unit with little to no ranged armor - such as light cavalry, other archers and crossbowmen (French aside), cannoneers and, of course, vills.

That being said, longbowmen scale poorly into late game. They barely scratch maa, knights and siege engines (which is what everyone will be fielding by then). Meaning they are not worth the investment and you would be better off investing into your maa. And there are two considerations here: Armor Clad, which makes your maa the most durable infantry unit in the game, and English economy, which is distinctly food/gold, with no boni towards wood production.

As for the Council Hall early rushes, this playstyle simply does not align well with English defensive propensity. They are at their best when they hide behind the stone wall and build a wonder. Meaning I don't see longbowmen as a unit that has a particular role or window in the game. As such, I pick Abbey of Kings lately for that sweet early game mass healing, which pairs well with maa compositions - those tend to survive fights after all.

Archers being a niche unit is simply not true, as you said yourself, it has many soft counters. Archers soft counter Crossbowmen as you said which stay relevant till late game, and All mounted Archers, again, staying relevant late game.
I would even argue they soft counter Hand gunners, especially with the enormous Range differnce to the english longbowmen (7 to 4) altough that last one is debatable with their health differences.

If you can kill these high value targets with your cheap bows, then you can spend your own gold on high value units like siege, knights or men at arms.

And taking Abbey over Council Hall in it's current state is kind of ridiculous. A Good English player can easily snipe off a few villagers every game, I'm serious I mean every Game. If you don't use this, you're not using this civ to it's full capability IMO. As soon as you hit feudal the council hall gives you 2 Archery Ranges with a special Unit. No other civ can keep up that pace of unit production that early, they simply don't have the wood for it. As soon as you have 10 Archers you can 1 shot a villager and you go over there to your opponent and start harassing him.

I used to play alot of english before switching to HRE, and I can tell you from both sides, that English Ram rush with longbowmen and MAA is nasty as hell. Many opponents perished before hitting castle age, and I also lost many times to a Longbowmen rush, it's hard to defend.

That makes sense even with a defensive civ, you're denying the enemys eco, potentially damaging it in a hard way which throws them back, even in the long run, their castle and imperial time will be later due to this.

[Harris]

Wese původně napsal:

Archers being a niche unit is simply not true

It IS true - they hard counter spearmen AND soft counter unarmored units in feudal and somewhat in castle. Later on they fall off as having little use beyond that point.

Handcannonners (your example) are infinitely superior to longbows. They can counter essentially anything - infantry, ranged, cavalry, even siege - as long as you have a frontline to shield them and keep them away from mangonels. Handcannonners work superbly against units that are commonly fielded in imperial - m@a, knights and siege. In other words, they are fit for purpose.

Meanwhile I have no reason to build longbows beyond feudal - as soon as other units start getting ranged armor longbows simply cease trading well with them. They become essentially Zhuge Nu without Zhuge Nu's firing rate.

In practise, for that final imperial battle resource costs isn't really relevant, while popcap really is. You want to fill your 100 slots with units that you will get most value of - that will win you most engagements and will stay alive longer. A choice between 15 longbows or 15 knights (or a bombard) is not even a choice, to be perfectly honest.

Mind that I'm coming from 4v4 perspective, and view English performance in the long run. My game will not end in feudal with a ram push, I am never banking on that. It will end in imperial with units on the battlefield longbows simply can't deal feasible damage. From this perspective, there is no point investing in longbows and their upgrades, it will be resources down the drain come imperial come castle even. Now even crossbows are a much better investment as they wreck knights and m@a, and those are a common sight. And if not - they still got a ton of general damage to make a difference, even against siege.

Wese původně napsal:

And taking Abbey over Council Hall in it's current state is kind of ridiculous.

After springald nerfs Abbey is hands down superior choice. Mangonels rule the battlefild now. Once your blob gets hit by one, what are you gonna do? Wait until you're castle age, build a monastery, build a couple of monks and heal them one by one? At this point you're better off deleting your blob and getting a new one. Meanwhile Abbey allows unit preservation and serves as a centerpiece for a forward base.

[M1A2C Abrams]

Wese původně napsal:

Harris původně napsal:

English main here.


Adressing the elephant in the room, the OP has to be taken with not a grain, but with a truck of salt, as he's clearly biased against English and has been that way even before release. With that out of the way, let's talk English.

1) Longbowmen

They are a niche unit with a niche use - they only get bonus damage against light infantry, which is spearmen and HRE landsknects. The former is anti-cavalry unit, and you are not likely to field any cavalry since you've no boni towards them (however, longbowmen+knights composition can be interesting). And the latter is trash and nobody uses them right now since they die too fast for their cost and maa are better overall. Otherwise longbowmen can be decent against any unit with little to no ranged armor - such as light cavalry, other archers and crossbowmen (French aside), cannoneers and, of course, vills.

That being said, longbowmen scale poorly into late game. They barely scratch maa, knights and siege engines (which is what everyone will be fielding by then). Meaning they are not worth the investment and you would be better off investing into your maa. And there are two considerations here: Armor Clad, which makes your maa the most durable infantry unit in the game, and English economy, which is distinctly food/gold, with no boni towards wood production.

As for the Council Hall early rushes, this playstyle simply does not align well with English defensive propensity. They are at their best when they hide behind the stone wall and build a wonder. Meaning I don't see longbowmen as a unit that has a particular role or window in the game. As such, I pick Abbey of Kings lately for that sweet early game mass healing, which pairs well with maa compositions - those tend to survive fights after all.

Archers being a niche unit is simply not true, as you said yourself, it has many soft counters. Archers soft counter Crossbowmen as you said which stay relevant till late game, and All mounted Archers, again, staying relevant late game.
I would even argue they soft counter Hand gunners, especially with the enormous Range differnce to the english longbowmen (7 to 4) altough that last one is debatable with their health differences.

If you can kill these high value targets with your cheap bows, then you can spend your own gold on high value units like siege, knights or men at arms.

And taking Abbey over Council Hall in it's current state is kind of ridiculous. A Good English player can easily snipe off a few villagers every game, I'm serious I mean every Game. If you don't use this, you're not using this civ to it's full capability IMO. As soon as you hit feudal the council hall gives you 2 Archery Ranges with a special Unit. No other civ can keep up that pace of unit production that early, they simply don't have the wood for it. As soon as you have 10 Archers you can 1 shot a villager and you go over there to your opponent and start harassing him.

I used to play alot of english before switching to HRE, and I can tell you from both sides, that English Ram rush with longbowmen and MAA is nasty as hell. Many opponents perished before hitting castle age, and I also lost many times to a Longbowmen rush, it's hard to defend.

That makes sense even with a defensive civ, you're denying the enemys eco, potentially damaging it in a hard way which throws them back, even in the long run, their castle and imperial time will be later due to this.

The HRE has a stronger economy than the English in Feudal age via the Aachen chapel.

[Wese]

@Harris

About springalds meta, springalds actually got buffed against siege they do even more damage now, so it's easier than ever to snipe an enemy Mangonel. They reduced Springalds damage to other units tho which is a good move. normal dmg from 60 to 30 but siege damage from 20 to 90. So to Siege they deal 120dmg instead of 80dmg. So seeing that they both unlock at the same age you should be able to counter mangonels timely.

Also I have to correct what you said, it doesn't matter which age they fight their soft counters. Archers will always trade well against mounted archers, even in imperial age. A crossbowman doesn't do bonus damage to a horse archer with armour upgrades, because it doesn't count as an armoured unit. I don't know if you are aware the game differentiates units in armoured and unarmoured regardeless of their armour upgrades.

I see your playing in an 1k ELO Range, I think at "lower" ELO ranges 4v4 might be all about just turtling till imperial and then settling it all in 1 big battle. But I think at higher ELO you will see more harassing and early aggression just like in 1v1.
If you pressure your opponent before he can build his perfect late game imperial army, Longbowmen actually are a really strong unit.
But with a playstyle of turtling till everyone has their perfect army and then clashing in a big team battle, surely I agree Longbowmen are not your best choice. For this kind of strategy war elephants give a great pop cap efficiency for example or your mentioned hand gunners costing a whopping 120 Food and 120 Gold.

Longbowmen clearly have their role and place in the game, I see no problem with that. what do you think relic should do, buff them so they're decent against knights and MAA aswell? I don't understand what your problem with Longbowmen is.

[Sash13]

Lol i wish i ever played against english player taking abbey instead of council hall. Good laugh is hard to come by and "free" win on top never hurts either.

On serious note, Longbows are good unit with abilities mind you!!!, that even in imperial can be used as a pretty good trash unit with good damage even against armored if massed (which should be no problem). Honestly so far, there is no way EVER abbey is a better choice, but maybe i will be proven wrong in the future and some crazy genious will make it work (press x to doubt).

[Harris]

Wese původně napsal:

springalds actually got buffed against siege they do even more damage now, so

So who's gonna bother building a unit that's not "I win" anymore? Springalds became a niche unit as well and will see less action, which is indirect buff to siege.

Wese původně napsal:

Archers will always trade well against mounted archers

So you're saying longbowmen are literally useful against only 2 civs past feudal? Right.

Wese původně napsal:

crossbowman doesn't do bonus damage to a horse archer with armour upgrades, because it doesn't count as an armoured unit.

Longbow is 6 damage before any upgrades, while crossbow is 12. With all upgrades longbows get to something like 13, while crossbows to something like 22.

What this means in practise is that longbows will do poorly against anything with high armor. At the same time, crossbows will do much better against things they are technically not supposed to counter, because their damage that comes before the "counter bonus" is almost double that of longbows.

Units get their kills either by having high damage (crossbows, handcannonners) or by having very fast fire rate which makes damage-per-shot irrelevant (Zhuge Nu). Longbows sit weirdly between those categories - they don't get to deal high damage, while they fire slowly outside of two conditions, one of which only works defensively and another only comes online imperial and is a time limited buff.

Wese původně napsal:

I see your playing in an 1k ELO Range

And you assume I'm an idiot. Wonderful :)

Seriously though, it's not all about "one big battle" - even though that's basically like wars were fought historically. It's not like longbows don't get to see action in 4v4s - on the contrary, everyone and their dog will vomit a blob of longbows upon reaching feudal. That's the only way to play English tbh, the only power spike they ever get before becoming an irrelevant mediocrity. This is a civ design issue rather anything.

What I'm trying to say here, that I can build French knights in feudal, and they will stay very relevant throughout the game. Longbows though are to carry you through your feudal ram push, afterwards you can just delete them and get actual units.

Wese původně napsal:

Longbowmen clearly have their role and place in the game, I see no problem with that. what do you think relic should do, buff them so they're decent against knights and MAA aswell? I don't understand what your problem with Longbowmen is.

Yes, that is exactly what I wish for. I wrote at Age forums about that, too. Longbows should get a slight damage bonus to heavy, which should come as upgrade in imperial, exactly to help them stay a relevant option at that point.

I mean, fielding a mangudai blob in imperial that longbows perfectly counter, that's 1000 IQ strat that only happens in lower ELO than even what I play :) And you don't bring longbows to counter handcannonners. You bring mangonels.