I feel that Civilisation Variants are being implemented in the wrong way

[[6thR.S.] TartanClad]

When I took part in the AoE4 survey a couple of weeks ago, I actually included the fact that I was hoping for sub-factions or 'variants' within each civilisation and I was very excited to find barely a week later that this was exactly what was going to happen.

However, I feel that an opportunity is being missed here. The variants are not.. quite what I envisioned. I was hoping that we would see variants of existing civilisations to represent other civilisations that were similar but different enough to have new mechanics; historical nations that would otherwise have been underrepresented due to their more powerful neighbours or for being too similar, all within the historical timescale of the game.

For example;
Duchy of Burgundy (Based on France)
Ayyubid Sultanate (Based on Abbasids)
Teutonic Order (Based on HRE)
Kingdom of Scotland (Based on England)
Golden Horde (Based on Mongols)
Great Liao (Based on the Chinese)
Songhay (Based on the Mali)

And so on and so forth. Using existing mechanics for a faction to broaden the scope of nations within a game.

Instead, from what I can tell, we are getting some strangely specific factions that deviate from the theme of a civilisation building through the eras. For example, 'Sultan's Army' implies specifically that the faction revolves around Saladin while Jeanne D'Arc is quite clear about whom it is based on. Saladin reigned for 20 years, and D'Arc's time as a significant figure in France lasted about 3 years. These are not civilisations spanning centuries - they are short moments of history, some of which are within existing factions.

I don't want to comment too much on the Empire of Jade and the Order of the Dragon because I don't really know what they are. My understanding of the Order of the Dragon, is kind of that it was a chivalric order but, unlike the Teutonic Order or the Livonian Order, it did not hold land but was rather a titular honour representing an alliance between various monarchs against the Ottomans, not really representing any civilisation in particular. It'll be interesting to see what the devs say about it..

In any case, the point I'm making is that the variant system seems to be a great idea but I am not a great fan of how they are doing it. I can't be the only person who feels this way and I was hoping to get an idea from the community to see what they think too.

[Who_ci]

It's pretty ambiguous, they have more interesting and popular variants but they decided to add factions that were armies or military orders as a whole...

[BigYellowOctopus]

Originally posted by 6thR.S. TartanClad:

When I took part in the AoE4 survey a couple of weeks ago, I actually included the fact that I was hoping for sub-factions or 'variants' within each civilisation and I was very excited to find barely a week later that this was exactly what was going to happen.

However, I feel that an opportunity is being missed here. The variants are not.. quite what I envisioned. I was hoping that we would see variants of existing civilisations to represent other civilisations that were similar but different enough to have new mechanics; historical nations that would otherwise have been underrepresented due to their more powerful neighbours or for being too similar, all within the historical timescale of the game.

For example;
Duchy of Burgundy (Based on France)
Ayyubid Sultanate (Based on Abbasids)
Teutonic Order (Based on HRE)
Kingdom of Scotland (Based on England)
Golden Horde (Based on Mongols)
Great Liao (Based on the Chinese)
Songhay (Based on the Mali)

And so on and so forth. Using existing mechanics for a faction to broaden the scope of nations within a game.

Instead, from what I can tell, we are getting some strangely specific factions that deviate from the theme of a civilisation building through the eras. For example, 'Sultan's Army' implies specifically that the faction revolves around Saladin while Jeanne D'Arc is quite clear about whom it is based on. Saladin reigned for 20 years, and D'Arc's time as a significant figure in France lasted about 3 years. These are not civilisations spanning centuries - they are short moments of history, some of which are within existing factions.

I don't want to comment too much on the Empire of Jade and the Order of the Dragon because I don't really know what they are. My understanding of the Order of the Dragon, is kind of that it was a chivalric order but, unlike the Teutonic Order or the Livonian Order, it did not hold land but was rather a titular honour representing an alliance between various monarchs against the Ottomans, not really representing any civilisation in particular. It'll be interesting to see what the devs say about it..

In any case, the point I'm making is that the variant system seems to be a great idea but I am not a great fan of how they are doing it. I can't be the only person who feels this way and I was hoping to get an idea from the community to see what they think too.

I completely agree. I was super excited about the variant civs because I thought they'd add a lot more options for play. Was expecting like the Celts or Teutonic Order or something. I really don't like the way they've chosen to implement the "variants."

[Trevor Reznik]

We don't have much info to go on right now.

Perhaps they chose these variants for interesting gameplay spin offs? They supposedly play very different to the vanilla faction.

[Dragoon@肩周炎]

As a Chinese, i don't know what is the Empire of Jade, it's not even any dynasty in history.I know there is a game call "Jade Empire" made by BioWare. But there is not any Chinese dynasty called "jade empire", this problem confuse me. AOE4 is a game about history not fantasy, maybe someone called some dynasty "the jade empire"?

[Dragoon@肩周炎]

Originally posted by Dragoon@肩周炎:

As a Chinese, i don't know what is the Empire of Jade, it's not even any dynasty in history.I know there is a game call "Jade Empire" made by BioWare. But there is not any Chinese dynasty called "jade empire", this problem confuse me. AOE4 is a game about history not fantasy, maybe someone called some dynasty "the jade empire"?

maybe Myanmar?

[James3157]

Originally posted by Dragoon@肩周炎:

As a Chinese, i don't know what is the Empire of Jade, it's not even any dynasty in history.I know there is a game call "Jade Empire" made by BioWare. But there is not any Chinese dynasty called "jade empire", this problem confuse me. AOE4 is a game about history not fantasy, maybe someone called some dynasty "the jade empire"?

This is only based on speculation. Most people are probably not familiar with the Jade Emperor (found from the Wikipedia) including even some Chinese people apparently. While Order of the Dragon is HRE variant, Jeanne D'Arc is Franks as mentioned in the trailer from the beginning (French Variant), and The Sultans Army is obviously Ayyubid Dynasty (because of Saladin) that overlaps the range of Abbasid Dynasty since they both existed at the same time (or in other words a variant for Abbasid Dynasty) , I am a bit skeptical that this other civilization variant is going to called the empire of Jade. Empire of Jade I think is more based on fantasy than an actual empire.

[G0ll0]

Jeanne D'Arc, is not a civilization or an empire, that's a hero, this doesn't make any sense, this is just pure political agenda in a video game.

[James3157]

Originally posted by Tsuda Tumiko:

Jeanne D'Arc, is not a civilization or an empire, that's a hero, this doesn't make any sense, this is just pure political agenda in a video game.

Jeanne D'Arc is in other words Joan of Arc correct? Joan of Arc did not participate in the crusades. I believe there will be a French variant called the "Franks" since the trailer 100% confirmed it (unless if it is false advertising), but I agree with you.

[jonoliveira12]

Originally posted by Dragoon@肩周炎:

As a Chinese, i don't know what is the Empire of Jade, it's not even any dynasty in history.I know there is a game call "Jade Empire" made by BioWare. But there is not any Chinese dynasty called "jade empire", this problem confuse me. AOE4 is a game about history not fantasy, maybe someone called some dynasty "the jade empire"?

Empire of Jade sounds like one of those generic fantasy not-Chinas, we get for fantasy games.
Miao Ying as Legendary Lord when?

[[6thR.S.] TartanClad]

Originally posted by James3157:

Jeanne D'Arc is Franks as mentioned in the trailer from the beginning (French Variant), and The Sultans Army is obviously Ayyubid Dynasty (because of Saladin) that overlaps the range of Abbasid Dynasty since they both existed at the same time (or in other words a variant for Abbasid Dynasty)

The problem with Jeanne D'Arc being the 'Franks' is that in terms of historiography, the Franks as as an era ended with the death of Charlemagne and the decline of the Carolingian Empire - effectively evolving into the French and Germans, among others. Jeanne D'Arc comes in about half a milllenium later and is very much 'French' rather than 'Frankish'.

As for the Sultan's Army, it would just generally be better in my opinion if they were called the Ayyubids or, if that's too similar to Abbasid to Relic, then maybe call them the Sultanate of Egypt. 'Sultans Army' still feels like it is tying a whole civilisation represented across 4 eras into a single moment of history.

Originally posted by Tsuda Tumiko:

..this is just pure political agenda in a video game.

Speaking as someone who doesn't like political agendas in video games, I'd say it's far too early to make claims like that. Let's wait until you have evidence for that because otherwise all you'll do is derail the thread and diminish the credibility of our discussion.

Originally posted by Dragoon@肩周炎:

As a Chinese, i don't know what is the Empire of Jade, it's not even any dynasty in history... AOE4 is a game about history not fantasy, maybe someone called some dynasty "the jade empire"?

I appreciate having someone actually from China weigh in on the discussion. It's concerning even you don't know what they could be talking about.

[Plastic Master]

Change the variant civ names!
They are horrible!
A 19 year-old-girl is a civ???
Really?
A sultan's army is a civ????
Which sultan by the way???
Empire of Jade is a civ?
I only know it is Chinese mythology

[BigYellowOctopus]

Originally posted by Plastic Master:

Change the variant civ names!
They are horrible!
A 19 year-old-girl is a civ???
Really?
A sultan's army is a civ????
Which sultan by the way???
Empire of Jade is a civ?
I only know it is Chinese mythology

Yea it's bad.

[jonoliveira12]

And now, get ready for the next varianst, in the next DLC!

Ottomans - Mehmed's Poster Boys
English - Robin Hood and the Merry Men
Malians - Mansa Musa's Pilgrimmage
Rus - That One Guy That Ivan Looked At A Glance
Japanese - Naruto
Byzantines - Romaboo Legion

[Narcissistic Cannibal]

Originally posted by Plastic Master:

Change the variant civ names!
They are horrible!
A 19 year-old-girl is a civ???

The devs have been zealously masturbating on Jeanne since the pre-release times. Why would they change their mind? I'm actually surprised they didn't incorporate her in the Japanese nation.

[Trevor Reznik]

Originally posted by jonoliveira12:

And now, get ready for the next varianst, in the next DLC!

Ottomans - Mehmed's Poster Boys
English - Robin Hood and the Merry Men
Malians - Mansa Musa's Pilgrimmage
Rus - That One Guy That Ivan Looked At A Glance
Japanese - Naruto
Byzantines - Romaboo Legion

So much hate flowing from you and we don't even have any solid idea of what these civs are other than the names.

Frankly hilarious