Can we all agree now that AoE4 didnt fail because the RTS genre is dead but because RTS has lost contact with its fans?

[....]

I bought every single AoE game until AoE4 - most of the at release but i knew that i wouldnt buy this game pretty soon:

Graphics:
- dated graphics for no reason (sorry but graphics settings a re a thing since forever)
- making dated graphics so that people with dated hardware can play it - people that probably dont even care about gaming ...

Esports:
- first of all - you cant just decide to make a popular esports game - thats not how it works
- second of all - the main audience of RTS isnt competitive Esports (its just a small part of the audience - i play RTS since forever and i barely play competitive esports - same applys to most people i know)
- Esports also is awful for SP gaming since everything will be limited due to balance and constantly changed



Please draw the right conclusion out of this - probably flop (playernumbers seem to be lower than older games ...) - people want a real AoE game and not another generic ESports game - and yes AoE always was known for having good graphics.

If you think the RTS and Sim/Building genre is dead - just take a look at all the indie-game hits in this genre - the genre is alive and well - what is dead is the genre of generic medicore games.


I tried the free weekend now and it didnt take me very long to realize that not buying this game was a great decision.

[seaston]

No we can't all agree that it failed. Sorry that disappoints and contradicts you. But that's my opinion, which carries as much weight as yours.

[....]

Originalmente postado por Brandoid:

aoe4 hasnt failed though

even with all these old game die hard haters and the launch that had a lot of missing features that should have been at launch game still keeping an 85% positive review rating. If it launched with all those basic things it would be well in the 90s

dont listen to single-player andys or older aoe diehards

Maybe thats because the game is so absurdly expensive on steam that only people bought it that really wanted it? (the game in my opinion never was worth the price when it comes to graphics and content - and not at all if you think about it pretty much beeing "free" with the gamepass)

And what are those cringe terms "single-player andys" and "aoe diehard" supposed to mean? So beeing a long time aoe fan is now a bad thing?

Originalmente postado por Subtle Butt:

Also like to add, the MP community is fine and doing well. The prominent AoE IV streamers get 1k+ viewers and the weekly tourneys get 2k+ viewers. That really isn't too far off AoE 2 viewership or SC2 viewership.

Sorry but 1k is almost nothing and do you really want to compare it to SC2 and AoE 2 - really old games that also dont have big eSports compared to other eSports?

Seriously i was a huge SC2 fan and a fan of the pro-matches and streams but today SC2 is dead - so having as much viewers as SC2 is pretty much accepting that your game is almost dead ...



Maybe i am wrong - i found no way of looking it up - but i am pretty sure that at its peak the viewer numbers of SC2 were massive.
(ok just found something all time peak viewers of an SC2 stream was a global final in 2018 with almost 180k viewers)

I think MS thought that AOE could be a successor to SC2 but obviously it cant because its a completely different game.

[Subtle Butt ( >ω<)っ ♡]

1k-2k regular concurrent viewers is decent for an RTS where the player pool isn't large in the first place. The average total viewership sits around 20k-30k. The last tournament "Golden League" had like 100k viewers and this isn't the largest tournament. Obviously the viewership is substantial enough to have tournaments. It isn't large as the largest games, but thats just how it is with RTS.

Also still, the game is hardly a "failure" when the reviews are pretty positive, playerbase numbers are fine and larger than most other RTS besides AoE 2. Seems to me AoE 4 is fine and is going to stick around.

Edit: You can watch a weekly tourney live right now with 2k viewers

[....]

Originalmente postado por Subtle Butt:

1k-2k regular concurrent viewers is decent for an RTS where the player pool isn't large in the first place. The average total viewership sits around 20k-30k. The last tournament "Golden League" had like 100k viewers and this isn't the largest tournament. Obviously the viewership is substantial enough to have tournaments. It isn't large as the largest games, but thats just how it is with RTS.

Also still, the game is hardly a "failure" when the reviews are pretty positive, playerbase numbers are fine and larger than most other RTS besides AoE 2. Seems to me AoE 4 is fine and is going to stick around.

Edit: You can watch a weekly tourney live right now with 2k viewers

Sorry but 1-2k viewers is nothing ...

Yes its one of the biggest classical RTS at the moment because there hardly are any RTS these days and most bigger older RTS are old and some even dropped most support ...

Right now AoE 4 has 3.5k viewers on twitch on a free weekend? The biggest channel has 2k viewers and everything after that 350 and below. Sorry but that is nothing ...

The global 1v1 leaderboard has 15407 ranked players - according to some posts in other forums it was almost at 55k in december 2021.

When a new game gets beaten by a visual upgrade from 2019 from a game from game from 1999 how else would you call that?

Even AoE3 - that to be honst in my opnion actually looks better than AoE4 in many aspects (for example water) had more players in july than aoe4 ... - and AoE3 never was that popular.

Also - when SC2 was popular it had lots of viewers. And if you think about it - streaming etc. has gotten way bigger these days - so those numbers back in the days actually were even more impressive.

And yes i think the steam numbers give a good picture of the situation since every other AoE game is also in the game pass as far as i know.

edit:
Last but not least the reason why i even still write about this game is because i want MS to make a real AoE successor in the future and not completely drop the game. Sadly many great RTS games have been dropped - mostly because someone completely ruined the games ... (for example Command and Conquer ... (a game similar to the classic C&C games would be a day 1 purchase for me))

[jonoliveira12]

Originalmente postado por ....:

Originalmente postado por Subtle Butt:

1k-2k regular concurrent viewers is decent for an RTS where the player pool isn't large in the first place. The average total viewership sits around 20k-30k. The last tournament "Golden League" had like 100k viewers and this isn't the largest tournament. Obviously the viewership is substantial enough to have tournaments. It isn't large as the largest games, but thats just how it is with RTS.

Also still, the game is hardly a "failure" when the reviews are pretty positive, playerbase numbers are fine and larger than most other RTS besides AoE 2. Seems to me AoE 4 is fine and is going to stick around.

Edit: You can watch a weekly tourney live right now with 2k viewers

Sorry but 1-2k viewers is nothing ...

Yes its one of the biggest classical RTS at the moment because there hardly are any RTS these days and most bigger older RTS are old and some even dropped most support ...

Right now AoE 4 has 3.5k viewers on twitch on a free weekend? The biggest channel has 2k viewers and everything after that 350 and below. Sorry but that is nothing ...

The global 1v1 leaderboard has 15407 ranked players - according to some posts in other forums it was almost at 55k in december 2021.

When a new game gets beaten by a visual upgrade from 2019 from a game from game from 1999 how else would you call that?

Even AoE3 - that to be honst in my opnion actually looks better than AoE4 in many aspects (for example water) had more players in july than aoe4 ... - and AoE3 never was that popular.

Also - when SC2 was popular it had lots of viewers. And if you think about it - streaming etc. has gotten way bigger these days - so those numbers back in the days actually were even more impressive.

And yes i think the steam numbers give a good picture of the situation since every other AoE game is also in the game pass as far as i know.

edit:
Last but not least the reason why i even still write about this game is because i want MS to make a real AoE successor in the future and not completely drop the game. Sadly many great RTS games have been dropped - mostly because someone completely ruined the games ... (for example Command and Conquer ... (a game similar to the classic C&C games would be a day 1 purchase for me))

Tempest Rising, a new game coming out (here on Steam) next year, will be a C&C clone, down to ConYards, Commandos, Double-Barreled Tanks and Industrial-Metal soundtrack.

Go check it out.

[Subtle Butt ( >ω<)っ ♡]

Originalmente postado por 76561197964917902:

Sorry but 1-2k viewers is nothing ...

Yes its one of the biggest classical RTS at the moment because there hardly are any RTS these days and most bigger older RTS are old and some even dropped most support ...

Right now AoE 4 has 3.5k viewers on twitch on a free weekend? The biggest channel has 2k viewers and everything after that 350 and below. Sorry but that is nothing ...

The global 1v1 leaderboard has 15407 ranked players - according to some posts in other forums it was almost at 55k in december 2021.

When a new game gets beaten by a visual upgrade from 2019 from a game from game from 1999 how else would you call that?

Even AoE3 - that to be honst in my opnion actually looks better than AoE4 in many aspects (for example water) had more players in july than aoe4 ... - and AoE3 never was that popular.

Also - when SC2 was popular it had lots of viewers. And if you think about it - streaming etc. has gotten way bigger these days - so those numbers back in the days actually were even more impressive.

And yes i think the steam numbers give a good picture of the situation since every other AoE game is also in the game pass as far as i know.

edit:
Last but not least the reason why i even still write about this game is because i want MS to make a real AoE successor in the future and not completely drop the game. Sadly many great RTS games have been dropped - mostly because someone completely ruined the games ... (for example Command and Conquer ... (a game similar to the classic C&C games would be a day 1 purchase for me))

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. AoE 4 has good viewership for what is an RTS. Stop comparing it to things like MOBAs or CS:GO. RTS genre as a whole is one of the hardest to enter into. Which reflects on the tournament prize pools. Still, we have tournaments for AoE 4 and AoE 2. As an RTS Esport, seems like its successful enough. SC2's golden days were the peak of RTS. There was barely any competition, MOBA's weren't as big and we didn't have all the new FPS, BRs, etc.

Graphics is bad? Says who? You and a few detractors? Graphics look pretty good to most people and the reviews are mostly positive. If graphics were such a big factor, AoE 2 wouldn't even be popular for a 2D Isometric game.

And what about Steam numbers? The Steam numbers for AoE 4 is fine. Its the 2nd most played RTS second only to AoE 2. AoE 3 spiked a bit in popularity during July due to a sale and the release of the Knights of the Mediterranean DLC. AoE 4 isn't designed to kill the other games in the franchise. They wouldn't release and actively support the other DE versions if that was the case.

You can be a detractor, but the devs have done a pretty good job with balancing the existing civs with winrates only ranging from 52-48%. Something even AoE 2 can't do. New content will only draw in more players again.

The RTS Genre is now very niche and compared to other games is quite inaccessible to other people. While other genres grow, the relative growth of the RTS playerbase is low. Even then, AoE 4 as a game is still pretty popular and easily breaks the Top 100 of steam charts. If anything, the AoE franchise as a whole has revived alot of the RTS playerbase.

[....]

Originalmente postado por Subtle Butt:

Originalmente postado por 76561197964917902:

Sorry but 1-2k viewers is nothing ...

Yes its one of the biggest classical RTS at the moment because there hardly are any RTS these days and most bigger older RTS are old and some even dropped most support ...

Right now AoE 4 has 3.5k viewers on twitch on a free weekend? The biggest channel has 2k viewers and everything after that 350 and below. Sorry but that is nothing ...

The global 1v1 leaderboard has 15407 ranked players - according to some posts in other forums it was almost at 55k in december 2021.

When a new game gets beaten by a visual upgrade from 2019 from a game from game from 1999 how else would you call that?

Even AoE3 - that to be honst in my opnion actually looks better than AoE4 in many aspects (for example water) had more players in july than aoe4 ... - and AoE3 never was that popular.

Also - when SC2 was popular it had lots of viewers. And if you think about it - streaming etc. has gotten way bigger these days - so those numbers back in the days actually were even more impressive.

And yes i think the steam numbers give a good picture of the situation since every other AoE game is also in the game pass as far as i know.

edit:
Last but not least the reason why i even still write about this game is because i want MS to make a real AoE successor in the future and not completely drop the game. Sadly many great RTS games have been dropped - mostly because someone completely ruined the games ... (for example Command and Conquer ... (a game similar to the classic C&C games would be a day 1 purchase for me))

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. AoE 4 has good viewership for what is an RTS. Stop comparing it to things like MOBAs or CS:GO. RTS genre as a whole is one of the hardest to enter into. Which reflects on the tournament prize pools. Still, we have tournaments for AoE 4 and AoE 2. As an RTS Esport, seems like its successful enough. SC2's golden days were the peak of RTS. There was barely any competition, MOBA's weren't as big and we didn't have all the new FPS, BRs, etc.

Graphics is bad? Says who? You and a few detractors? Graphics look pretty good to most people and the reviews are mostly positive. If graphics were such a big factor, AoE 2 wouldn't even be popular for a 2D Isometric game.

And what about Steam numbers? The Steam numbers for AoE 4 is fine. Its the 2nd most played RTS second only to AoE 2. AoE 3 spiked a bit in popularity during July due to a sale and the release of the Knights of the Mediterranean DLC. AoE 4 isn't designed to kill the other games in the franchise. They wouldn't release and actively support the other DE versions if that was the case.

You can be a detractor, but the devs have done a pretty good job with balancing the existing civs with winrates only ranging from 52-48%. Something even AoE 2 can't do. New content will only draw in more players again.

The RTS Genre is now very niche and compared to other games is quite inaccessible to other people. While other genres grow, the relative growth of the RTS playerbase is low. Even then, AoE 4 as a game is still pretty popular and easily breaks the Top 100 of steam charts. If anything, the AoE franchise as a whole has revived alot of the RTS playerbase.

Graphics look bad - thats not subjective. Its also on purpose - their argument was to make the game playable on as many PCs as possible.
Take a look at for example water in AoE4 - then take a look at water in AoE3 DE or maybe even AoE3 - a game from 2005 has better water than a game from 2022. Seriously i think there is no denying that AoE4 doesnt have current gen graphics - in many aspects it cant even compete with 10 year old games ...
Battles and animations arent good either - dont get me wrong its not the most awful looking game - but its nowhere near current gen. Even a game made by 1 person has better animations and graphics ... (Manor Lords) - dont get me wrong i dont expect realistic graphics from AoE but i expect good animations and current gen graphics.

When it comes to animations and battle i was expecting something like this - but better - from a new AoE:
https://youtu.be/VdA9FatSzFQ?t=35


Also i think you are completely wrong - RTS isnt dead - bad generic RTS games are dead. Just take a look at all the other genres big publishers thought would be "dead" yet in reality indie DEVs are able to produce huge hits in those genres.

The problem isnt that a genre is dead - its that the games made in that genre are sub-par and especially because publishers these days want to maximize the audience while actually making a game nobody wants (if you make a game with people in mind that dont want to play RTS because you want more buyers chances are you are making a game that neither new nor the old players want). Just take a look at games like Command and Conquer - do you seriously think the game is dead because people dont like RTS anymore - or is it because EA destroyed the franchise with awful games?

Take a look at BF2042 - does that mean that BF is dead because people dont like BF games anymore? No - its the exact opposite - people love BF games but they dislike whatever BF2042 was.


I am still a huge fan of RTS - but i barely buy any RTS or play any these days - not because i dont want to but because the current RTS games simply arent what i want.

Thanks for the Tip about the game similar to C&C i will take a look at it.

[Silver]

On the start screen for AoE4 - the first thing I did on finally getting to see it after the (irritating) tutorial was close the game and search for whether or not it was possible to turn off the experience bar, busy tickers or other online features. That's surely not the intent of the developers, so I wonder if something could've been done to make it less intrusive, or perhaps more opt-in.

I dunno, either way the game doesn't feel like it was meant for older gamers like myself. Ah well.

[76561198052050156]

AoE4 is a waste of time. I'm a huge AoE fan since 1997 but I hate this. Just like I hated AoE3. It's completely not satisfying. It has a childish feeling. This reminds me to the flash games my kid played at the age of 6. The developers just destroyed the game entirely. This has nothing to do with the AoE-scenery. It's a totally shameless commercial rape.

[Le_Petit_Prince]

It's what you think. RTS games are not for all. It requires certain amount of skills. Some do not even complete tasks and find they are in some sort of training. Others play solo like Sim city.

RTS games mean multiplayer competition who can be fast, agile. Those who do not want to put effort to the game say things like this.

Believe it or not, most of the games are lost because some do not use common sense. I played with new players when I get attacked by two or more, they just sit in their base with their troops. Often I can deal with 2 but not 3. Even if they don't want to support they could immediately attack the opponent, but they don't. It's a mystery what they think.

Sitting with all your troops in the base will eventually win you?! Same , RTS game is something you need to develop a skill, sitting here thinking about RTS game is loosing contact (vague idea) will not make you skilled.

An RTS game is NOT like Sim city.

[....]

Originalmente postado por Le_Petit_Prince:

It's what you think. RTS games are not for all. It requires certain amount of skills. Some do not even complete tasks and find they are in some sort of training. Others play solo like Sim city.

RTS games mean multiplayer competition who can be fast, agile. Those who do not want to put effort to the game say things like this.

Believe it or not, most of the games are lost because some do not use common sense. I played with new players when I get attacked by two or more, they just sit in their base with their troops. Often I can deal with 2 but not 3. Even if they don't want to support they could immediately attack the opponent, but they don't. It's a mystery what they think.

Sitting with all your troops in the base will eventually win you?! Same , RTS game is something you need to develop a skill, sitting here thinking about RTS game is loosing contact (vague idea) will not make you skilled.

An RTS game is NOT like Sim city.

No thats not what RTS is ...
RTS was non competitive casual MP and mostly SP and Coop way longer than it was generic "competitive" MP.

In reality competitive MP is mostly a joke because probably 70% of the "competitive" matches are decided by how simply learned chesse builds or builds in general better than the other guy. Actually tactial competitive games probably only are played at pretty high levels.

Sorry but eSports is one of the most annoying things lately - not because i dislike it completely but because people seem to think that its the only thing that matters in gaming when in reality its a niche thing - there are only a few games that actually have a serious competitive scene - and dont get me wrong i enjoy those - but that doesnt mean i want everything to be like that.


Also if you think that eSports is the most important aspect of an RTS - how do you explain that AoE4 isnt a huge hit? I mean from what ive read during development eSports was one of their biggest concerns - they even made the game look weird and ugly for "readability" (which makes no sense at all since beeing able to analyze what is on a screen is actually a skill too and nobody would argue that a FPS game isnt competitive and not readable because models arent glowing in two different colors and because maps have textures etc. ...) and other weird things ... (unit size etc.)


I had way more fun with SP in SC2 or casual SC MP and casual MP in games like Command & Conquer and Empire Earth than i ever had in the great "competitive" RTS community ... - do people even realize that competitive RTS actually isnt what defines the RTS genre?

But since there is even competitive Excel these days i wonder if people actually play games and do things for fun ...

[jonoliveira12]

Originalmente postado por ....:

Originalmente postado por Le_Petit_Prince:

It's what you think. RTS games are not for all. It requires certain amount of skills. Some do not even complete tasks and find they are in some sort of training. Others play solo like Sim city.

RTS games mean multiplayer competition who can be fast, agile. Those who do not want to put effort to the game say things like this.

Believe it or not, most of the games are lost because some do not use common sense. I played with new players when I get attacked by two or more, they just sit in their base with their troops. Often I can deal with 2 but not 3. Even if they don't want to support they could immediately attack the opponent, but they don't. It's a mystery what they think.

Sitting with all your troops in the base will eventually win you?! Same , RTS game is something you need to develop a skill, sitting here thinking about RTS game is loosing contact (vague idea) will not make you skilled.

An RTS game is NOT like Sim city.

No thats not what RTS is ...
RTS was non competitive casual MP and mostly SP and Coop way longer than it was generic "competitive" MP.

In reality competitive MP is mostly a joke because probably 70% of the "competitive" matches are decided by how simply learned chesse builds or builds in general better than the other guy. Actually tactial competitive games probably only are played at pretty high levels.

Sorry but eSports is one of the most annoying things lately - not because i dislike it completely but because people seem to think that its the only thing that matters in gaming when in reality its a niche thing - there are only a few games that actually have a serious competitive scene - and dont get me wrong i enjoy those - but that doesnt mean i want everything to be like that.


Also if you think that eSports is the most important aspect of an RTS - how do you explain that AoE4 isnt a huge hit? I mean from what ive read during development eSports was one of their biggest concerns - they even made the game look weird and ugly for "readability" (which makes no sense at all since beeing able to analyze what is on a screen is actually a skill too and nobody would argue that a FPS game isnt competitive and not readable because models arent glowing in two different colors and because maps have textures etc. ...) and other weird things ... (unit size etc.)


I had way more fun with SP in SC2 or casual SC MP and casual MP in games like Command & Conquer and Empire Earth than i ever had in the great "competitive" RTS community ... - do people even realize that competitive RTS actually isnt what defines the RTS genre?

But since there is even competitive Excel these days i wonder if people actually play games and do things for fun ...

Competitive MP RTS originated with Starcraft: Brood War.

Before then, RTS was geared towards varied gameplay with no balance, and a lot of features focusing on speed, area denial, and strong resource gatherer units that soaked up a lot of damage.

Esports damaged RTS by making it much faster that it was ever supposed to be, less strategic, less fighting around the map, and more geared towards builds and ceaseless micromanagement.

In essence, RTS became a lot like Fighting Games, which is why it lost it's audience to MOBAs, which are EVEN MORE like fighting games, or to Grand Strategy (the gamers that actually like RTS for the base building, teching up and resource gathering).

As soon as RTS slows down and becomes more STRATEGIC, and less about 6 million clicks per minute, and memorizing your "main" race's/faction's 3 openings to an obsesseive degree; it will gain back the MASSIVE casual crowd that migrated to Grand Strategy titles, and easily become as monetizable as them.

AoE2 showed the way. Next patch is nerfing Crossbowmen upgrade costs to slow down the gameplay again.
You will need to build up to survive with Archers, Pikes, Towers and Knights, building a large city with a huge Economy, rather than Rushing power units anymore.

[....]

Originalmente postado por jonoliveira12:

Originalmente postado por ....:

No thats not what RTS is ...
RTS was non competitive casual MP and mostly SP and Coop way longer than it was generic "competitive" MP.

In reality competitive MP is mostly a joke because probably 70% of the "competitive" matches are decided by how simply learned chesse builds or builds in general better than the other guy. Actually tactial competitive games probably only are played at pretty high levels.

Sorry but eSports is one of the most annoying things lately - not because i dislike it completely but because people seem to think that its the only thing that matters in gaming when in reality its a niche thing - there are only a few games that actually have a serious competitive scene - and dont get me wrong i enjoy those - but that doesnt mean i want everything to be like that.


Also if you think that eSports is the most important aspect of an RTS - how do you explain that AoE4 isnt a huge hit? I mean from what ive read during development eSports was one of their biggest concerns - they even made the game look weird and ugly for "readability" (which makes no sense at all since beeing able to analyze what is on a screen is actually a skill too and nobody would argue that a FPS game isnt competitive and not readable because models arent glowing in two different colors and because maps have textures etc. ...) and other weird things ... (unit size etc.)


I had way more fun with SP in SC2 or casual SC MP and casual MP in games like Command & Conquer and Empire Earth than i ever had in the great "competitive" RTS community ... - do people even realize that competitive RTS actually isnt what defines the RTS genre?

But since there is even competitive Excel these days i wonder if people actually play games and do things for fun ...

Competitive MP RTS originated with Starcraft: Brood War.

Before then, RTS was geared towards varied gameplay with no balance, and a lot of features focusing on speed, area denial, and strong resource gatherer units that soaked up a lot of damage.

Esports damaged RTS by making it much faster that it was ever supposed to be, less strategic, less fighting around the map, and more geared towards builds and ceaseless micromanagement.

In essence, RTS became a lot like Fighting Games, which is why it lost it's audience to MOBAs, which are EVEN MORE like fighting games, or to Grand Strategy (the gamers that actually like RTS for the base building, teching up and resource gathering).

As soon as RTS slows down and becomes more STRATEGIC, and less about 6 million clicks per minute, and memorizing your "main" race's/faction's 3 openings to an obsesseive degree; it will gain back the MASSIVE casual crowd that migrated to Grand Strategy titles, and easily become as monetizable as them.

AoE2 showed the way. Next patch is nerfing Crossbowmen upgrade costs to slow down the gameplay again.
You will need to build up to survive with Archers, Pikes, Towers and Knights, building a large city with a huge Economy, rather than Rushing power units anymore.

This actually makes a lot of sense now that i think about it. eSports really pushed a very specific ruleset on RTS in general. The problem seems to be that publishers/developers dont seem to realize that you cant combine both casual/SP etc. and eSports without making the other part way worse - but i guess its worth it for a publisher if an eSports game takes of with all the microtransactions for the most cheap to produce things like skins etc.

Probably also explains what they are doing to AoE or what they did to the Command and Conquer games.

[TheDiaper]

Originalmente postado por Subtle Butt:

Also like to add, the MP community is fine and doing well. The prominent AoE IV streamers get 1k+ viewers and the weekly tourneys get 2k+ viewers. That really isn't too far off AoE 2 viewership or SC2 viewership.

AOE2
https://twitchtracker.com/games/13389

AOE4
https://twitchtracker.com/games/498482

SC2
https://twitchtracker.com/games/490422


AOE2 & sc2 have double the viewers......

[TheDiaper]

Originalmente postado por jonoliveira12:

AoE2 showed the way. Next patch is nerfing Crossbowmen upgrade costs to slow down the gameplay again.
You will need to build up to survive with Archers, Pikes, Towers and Knights, building a large city with a huge Economy, rather than Rushing power units anymore.

LUL no