Russia horse archer now is so powerful and cheap！！

[荔枝ccc]

just 80 food ,40 wood, so cheap ！ and have 12 attacks ！ Mongolia horse archer will be defeat by archer man ,and 120 food ,40 gold ,expensive . but Russia horse archer, cheap ,and can not be defeated by any thing ,.. about 20-30mins russia can have 20-30 Russia horse archers ,no one can deal these thing , please cahnge

[Heimdall313]

Cav Archer will shred your crossbows, yes, but you simply kill them with Archers, who are even cheaper.
You can also force them to move, since they can't shoot and move like Mangudai. Mangonels and Springald for example, or Archers.
Use walls or palisades. If they don't have plenty of open space, they get wrecked, and they suck against walls.
Cheap horsemen, or slaughter with Knights.

Walls and Archers, Walls and archers. Flank with your own horses.

[荔枝ccc]

俄罗斯马弓箭手现在是如此强大和便宜

只要80份食物，40块木头，那么便宜！而且有12次攻击！蒙古马弓箭手将被弓箭手击败，而120份食物，40块金子，非常昂贵。但是俄罗斯的马弓箭手，便宜，任何东西都不能打败，。。大约20-30分钟俄罗斯可以有20-30名俄罗斯马弓箭手，没有人能处理这些事情，请改一下

[荔枝ccc]

Originally posted by Heimdall313:

Cav Archer will shred your crossbows, yes, but you simply kill them with Archers, who are even cheaper.
You can also force them to move, since they can't shoot and move like Mangudai. Mangonels and Springald for example, or Archers.
Use walls or palisades. If they don't have plenty of open space, they get wrecked, and they suck against walls.
Cheap horsemen, or slaughter with Knights.

Walls and Archers, Walls and archers. Flank with your own horses.

if you play against with russia , you will find , archers can not win russia horse archer

[TheDiaper]

Originally posted by Heimdall313:

Cav Archer will shred your crossbows, yes, but you simply kill them with Archers, who are even cheaper.
You can also force them to move, since they can't shoot and move like Mangudai. Mangonels and Springald for example, or Archers.
Use walls or palisades. If they don't have plenty of open space, they get wrecked, and they suck against walls.
Cheap horsemen, or slaughter with Knights.

Walls and Archers, Walls and archers. Flank with your own horses.

Generic archers dont really work with equal eco.

[PeteSkTemplar]

Imo most players would welcome archers being stronger against not heavy armored units, those archers are not for free, also spearmen should get shields so resist against frontal fire.

[BONITTO]

Yeah they are OP. You have slight chance of wining if there are choke points on map otherwise you are dead.

[TheDiaper]

Albeit the horse archers are allegedly bugged / broken, the biggest issue of Rus is their professional scouts play imo. I dont see any counterplay on land maps except walling the hunts with delhi.

[Cacomistle]

Originally posted by A Jerking Ape:

Albeit the horse archers are allegedly bugged / broken, the biggest issue of Rus is their professional scouts play imo. I dont see any counterplay on land maps except walling the hunts with delhi.

The counter play is to go professional scouts, or maybe go English so you aren't crippled as much after losing your hunt (which works worse than pro scouts).

Rus are the best at it, but I wouldn't say its a rus issue. Chinese for example can get professional scouts almost as fast (they can get the upgrade earlier but they have to wait for the scouts to get to the hunt since they can't build them early), French aren't that far behind, and idk how it works with Mongols but they seem to tower rush every game I've watched top 200 streamers play against them even against rus.

I also don't feel like walling the hunt is a great counter play. I don't think you can reliably protect both your hunts that way before pro scouts and 3 hunts to 1 is probably quite bad.

I think if rus didn't have the bugged superior horse archer in combination with pro scouts they'd be fine. Its that they have an overpowered (in the literal sense its more powerful than intended) unit and their economy is too safe to stop them from getting there outside of dedicated allins that rus can beat easily in feudal.

[TheDiaper]

Originally posted by Cacomistle:

The counter play is to go professional scouts, or maybe go English so you aren't crippled as much after losing your hunt (which works worse than pro scouts).

Rus are the best at it, but I wouldn't say its a rus issue. Chinese for example can get professional scouts almost as fast (they can get the upgrade earlier but they have to wait for the scouts to get to the hunt since they can't build them early),

I dont think mirroring counts as a counter play, and as you said, other civs scouts come way slower. I agree the whole pro scout tech is the root of the issue tho.

I also don't feel like walling the hunt is a great counter play. I don't think you can reliably protect both your hunts that way before pro scouts and 3 hunts to 1 is probably quite bad.

Beasty did it once in the continental clash, and that was the only actual counter play Ive seen so far, but I dont think he managed to deny all the hunts from his rus opponent.
https://youtu.be/ePjNXZHHEzg

[Cacomistle]

Originally posted by A Jerking Ape:

Originally posted by Cacomistle:

The counter play is to go professional scouts, or maybe go English so you aren't crippled as much after losing your hunt (which works worse than pro scouts).

Rus are the best at it, but I wouldn't say its a rus issue. Chinese for example can get professional scouts almost as fast (they can get the upgrade earlier but they have to wait for the scouts to get to the hunt since they can't build them early),

I dont think mirroring counts as a counter play, and as you said, other civs scouts come way slower. I agree the whole pro scout tech is the root of the issue tho.

I also don't feel like walling the hunt is a great counter play. I don't think you can reliably protect both your hunts that way before pro scouts and 3 hunts to 1 is probably quite bad.

Beasty did it once in the continental clash, and that was the only actual counter play Ive seen so far, but I dont think he managed to deny all the hunts from his rus opponent.
https://youtu.be/ePjNXZHHEzg

Oh he had a pretty nice map for that.

I think walling in the hunt can be a counter to losing all your hunt, but he still lost his top hunt (so 3 hunts to 1), which is pretty bad.

On non mirroring counters, I've seen hera going 2 tc and kings palace for castle age on English against Rus. It seems ok to me. You're behind for a while since rus get relics largely for free and their food lasts forever, but around 15-16 minutes when the food runs out rus just falls apart to the English vastly superior vill numbers. English have strong enough defense and longbow are good enough vs horse archers that they seem to be capable of surviving through that 5-6 minute weak period.

I kind of wonder if you could do something like that on Chinese too. Like if you went song dynasty into castle age, or maybe song dynasty 2 tc and defend against horse archer with zhuge nu (mangonels would be scary, but scouts are pretty insane feudal anti siege, and if you can make it to castle you just get springalds obviously), you might be able to survive long enough to outscale the rus economy. I haven't really seen pro players experiment with that because they tend to just go for the Chinese pro scouts themselves.

Or 2 tc play from really anyone on maps where you have a hunt in your base might work. I kind of wonder even on arabia, if you put your second tc on the hunt, I think its dps is still too low to kill the pro scouts, but maybe you can keep at least some of the food. Rus players are pretty much always set up for fast castle so they wouldn't be likely to ram push your exposed second tc either.

I've seen feudal allin from French/English work too, but that's against the rus fast castle. If rus played feudal they'd probably win.

And I think mongol might be able to beat it with tower rush, but that's because tower rush is just as uncounterable of a strategy as professional scouts. Rus is probably the civ its weakest against though since they don't need gold and like to tower their wood anyways.

I don't think there's any plays that come out positive against professional scouts but I think you can at least come out slightly negative with some win conditions.

[Tizon]

lol un-nerf springalds then you can with 15 springalds haha.

Or try to hold on to sacred sites on open maps and drop towers and castle around them to make them come to you.

in black forest maps these horse archers may not be as good

[荔枝ccc]

Originally posted by Tizon:

lol un-nerf springalds then you can with 15 springalds haha.

Or try to hold on to sacred sites on open maps and drop towers and castle around them to make them come to you.

in black forest maps these horse archers may not be as good

you can only play with AI , play with true man not fit to you

[ARCAGNELL0]

I've had some games against Rus Horse Archer play, which is in line with everything that's said here.

To Cacomistle:
I don't know which part of the Rus Horse Archer is bugged, but that'd explain how effective they are despite only costing 120 resources, none of which is gold.

As a Chinese main:
I tend to forsake the hunts and go straight for a very greedy Double TC into song dynasty into Castle age into triple TC into Yuan DYnasty build against Rus.

99% of them go for fast castle into horse archer-scout spam, sometimes with either Lancers or Men At Arms mixed in. Spamming some of those good old Handcannoneer Outposts as needed to both garrison your vills against raids and provide additional armor piercing firepower in addition to your Zhuge-Nu is quite great.

The Chinese answer to Horse Archers is not Lancers. It's Yuan Dynasty Palace Guard/Spearmen spam backed up by Nests Of Bees and Springalds, coupled with an overwhelming enconomic advantage that's going to render the fact rus are 100% going to get most of not all relics and most if not all sacred sites irrelevant.

Going to imperial age afterwards and placing 9 Stables (3 of which supervised) around the spirit way to just spam an endless wave of wave of 14 gold Fire Lancers if the game drags on too long also works. Fire Lancers absolutely wreck any sort of ranged unit unless they're incredibly well microed Mangudai, the only things that trade effectively against them are infantry blobs with spears mixed in to deny charges, which is why you need both some Nests Of Bees and Palace Guard/Spearmen as a frontline to act as your anvil.

Check this video for reference:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDLuydW89cM
And no, the Nest Of Bees is still a lot worse than the mangonel. Drongo still does not seem to realize the Nests Of Bees can't even fire all their 8 projectiles most of the time and that the siege engine itself is a lot more gold heavy than the Mangonel, on an already very gold dependant civ.

[TheDiaper]

Originally posted by Cacomistle:

I don't think there's any plays that come out positive against professional scouts but I think you can at least come out slightly negative with some win conditions.

I feel like you either fight Rus scissors with your own smaller scissor, or try to outplay Rus with a bigger paper. Rock just doesnt exist at the moment, pro scouts are just so good with the price.

Btw the snek proposed a tweak on his twitter two weeks ago

41. Professional Scouts allow scouts to pick up deer, but add a 2-3 second pick-up time, and a 20-30% speed reduction while carrying the deer to allow for counter-play.

[Goob]

Originally posted by Heimdall313:

Cav Archer will shred your crossbows, yes, but you simply kill them with Archers, who are even cheaper.
You can also force them to move, since they can't shoot and move like Mangudai. Mangonels and Springald for example, or Archers.
Use walls or palisades. If they don't have plenty of open space, they get wrecked, and they suck against walls.
Cheap horsemen, or slaughter with Knights.

Walls and Archers, Walls and archers. Flank with your own horses.

As someone who plays Rus,
walls are so annoying, having to build trebs if you are in age 3 and they have stone walls god it sucks, only bombards really help against stone and mongonels are reallly strong vs horse archers the rus can spam scouts to kill the mongos,
In short walls spears archer and mongos work wonders against horse archer spam!