Another unbalanced topic, This time Rus on water

[BONITTO]

Yeah I know.. I know... Most gonna say I can't handle bla bla bla... just want to know people's opinion.

So I had the chance to play against Rus on water and all I can say is that actually Rus is better than French on water I think. They can turn their ships into attack ships and dominate your shore the moment they advance to feudall where you can't build on water anymore. Their fishing ships scattered around the map because they no need drop points, chasing them becomes waste while you are being attacked.. every ship you have is important because you can't keep up archer ship count with Rus because they can turn fishing ships to attack ships. I had 2 games today with HRE against Rus and I think I did the best with HRE but just can't keep up.

For now I play every game with HRE and every game it feels like opponent has the upper hand and I must act upon it. In terms of mobility economy... everything. One thing HRE relied on was emergeny repair but it got nerfed. Prelates still getting bugged... HRE Spearman is bugged...
landsknecht weakest unit in game... enough said...

Yet, Still ao4 balance team speaking of nerfing HRE... WHY??? WHY???

[Harris]

Originally posted by YOREM_KASTOR:

Rus is better than French on water I think

French lost its naval dominance. Hulks became too squishy for their cost, and are wrecked by massed arrow ships. And given how French can't build anything else and how Galleass are more fit to harrass the coast on hybrid maps than to contest water - that leaves them with no options. I mean, you can still get some 950 gold per French trade ship on Boulder Bay in 4v4, but that's about it.

[Antpile]

Rus and Mongols both have very strong water. France can still be pretty strong if not against one of those two. The 2 armor hulk can lose now, but it still retains a lot of the advantages it used to have. It still wrecks your arrow boats in only a couple of shots, then can run off under the cover of friends to repair. France can easily cause you losses while taking none themselves.

That is, unless they are against Mongols or Rus. Both get big bonuses to wood gathering early. Both have boats that move and shoot like Mangudai. So there is no running from them. Those hulks, or anyone else's arrow ships, are not escaping with low hp.

Mongols get extra wood because they don't have to make houses, saving them hundreds of wood in the first few minutes of the game that go into extra docks, fishing boats, and fighting boats. Also they save wood by placing their town hall right on the wood, saving them the 50 wood everyone else spends on a lumber mill. Then they can age up silver tree for the free market to sell all that fishing food to buy yet more boats.

Rus don't get free houses, but they get lots of free gold. Although on water maps the island you start on doesn't usually have a ton of huntables. This lets them focus harder on wood early without needing to gather gold, or at least not needing as many vills on gold. Then they age up golden gate which does similar things to the market in letting them dump some food for more boat resources.

And then for some reason Rus boats just get crazy good with upgrades. For example, the improved range upgrade in the university that gives everyone else fire arrows and a little damage boost gives Rus boats like +44 vs buildings. And every age they get an upgrade to give their arrow boats more armor and health. They end up being able to stand toe to toe to anything else on the water easily all while firing while moving.

[BONITTO]

Originally posted by Antpile:

Rus and Mongols both have very strong water. France can still be pretty strong if not against one of those two. The 2 armor hulk can lose now, but it still retains a lot of the advantages it used to have. It still wrecks your arrow boats in only a couple of shots, then can run off under the cover of friends to repair. France can easily cause you losses while taking none themselves.

That is, unless they are against Mongols or Rus. Both get big bonuses to wood gathering early. Both have boats that move and shoot like Mangudai. So there is no running from them. Those hulks, or anyone else's arrow ships, are not escaping with low hp.

Mongols get extra wood because they don't have to make houses, saving them hundreds of wood in the first few minutes of the game that go into extra docks, fishing boats, and fighting boats. Also they save wood by placing their town hall right on the wood, saving them the 50 wood everyone else spends on a lumber mill. Then they can age up silver tree for the free market to sell all that fishing food to buy yet more boats.

Rus don't get free houses, but they get lots of free gold. Although on water maps the island you start on doesn't usually have a ton of huntables. This lets them focus harder on wood early without needing to gather gold, or at least not needing as many vills on gold. Then they age up golden gate which does similar things to the market in letting them dump some food for more boat resources.

And then for some reason Rus boats just get crazy good with upgrades. For example, the improved range upgrade in the university that gives everyone else fire arrows and a little damage boost gives Rus boats like +44 vs buildings. And every age they get an upgrade to give their arrow boats more armor and health. They end up being able to stand toe to toe to anything else on the water easily all while firing while moving.

I was also thinking how my opponent playing as Mongols could spam that much of archer ships. I can catch up with Mongols but they just shoot my fishing ships and goes away since one of the archer ship is enough to take down a fishing boat I can't take the risk of having my navy scattered around chasing them as if playing against Rus. Overall in my opinion Rus needs some nerf on water and on land. Rus on land seems to keep upper hand from the first minute just because they have early knights same goes for France. Being able to produce early Knights alone are enough threat to anyone playing against Rus or France where it brings you to a point, you can't make your own strategy anymore but play depending on what your opponent makes. Maybe I am wrong on this I don't know because this is how I feel playing with HRE all the time.

Playing agaisnt English - I must focus on cavalry
Playing against France - Rus - I must focus on spearman and be carefull to archers while chasing knights around my towncenter
Playing against Mongols - I must scout his build order so I don't get rushed.
Playing against Delhi - Must not let him early castle or he destroys everything with elephants and sieage
...

Hope you get the point HRE losses in terms of mobility they are too slow.

[TheDiaper]

Feudal knights isnt really a problem after the spearman buff, problem is that professional scouts is SO GOOD, and Rus do it the best.