Why French are not OP or are they? Explanation. Unpopular opinion.

[andycott]

This topic exists because people say French are OP and need nerfing.
I want people simply to think about balance. Are other civs really that bad comparing to French? Analize other civs bonuses too.

The game came out not long ago, so there is always something new to learn from it as a result. I'm not here to change your opinion, but to see different opinions on this topic to understand better myself which French bonuses are OP and how better they are than other civs, or maybe why they are not this powerful in reality if someone thinks so.

Even before starting this topic I thought that French were powerful and one of the best factions or even the best one. Everyone can agree with that.
The game needs balancing if one of the civs is much better than others in most aspects and some others are too weak or their bonuses are either too complex to master or appear too late. It's bad for the game and MP in the first place.

But is there no other civ really even close to them? All factions have their own unique bonuses, some of them are better than some of the French ones and some are excellent counters to French. Which also doesn't mean that France doesn't have more useful bonuses than other civs early on, which is one of the biggest problems with them and to add to that sometimes they receive them without trade offs. And will you be able to survive long enough to use other civs powerful late game bonuses against French? Nobody is able to find out the truth without learning all of them as good as French bonuses. It is one of the simplest civs to master, so it is natural that a lot of people may have learnt how to play only with them. It doesn't make them weaker, but can make the popular statement that they are an automatic win biassed.
But everything is subjective.

If you try imagining future balancing patches results you should also understand that there would not be one best civ only if all of them were exactly the same, which would be boring and bad for the game as well. In the end one of these eight civs would still be better than anyone else f.e. after French potentially would be nerfed and some others buffed. You can't perfectly balance such different civs without making them all generic.

Still at the moment French are one of the best, but as practice shows - not unbeatable and can be countered, as any civ can be, and still often harder to deal with than most. Especially if French bonuses are in the right hands, but this applies to any civ. But the more time passes the better and more people figure out how to counter France.

EDITED. A lot of text was deleted as people tend not to read it anyway.

[Varien]

I can respect your arguments, although the point stands that they are IMO the most OP faction by a gunshot, then a ricochet. That is from a PERK standpoint, I'll fear a mongol or even English rush before I fear the french.

Give me a civ with only the perk of "Traders can trade anything" and i'll pick that civ.

[andycott]

Originally posted by Varien:

I can respect your arguments, although the point stands that they are IMO the most OP faction by a gunshot, then a ricochet. That is from a PERK standpoint, I'll fear a mongol or even English rush before I fear the french.

Give me a civ with only the perk of "Traders can trade anything" and i'll pick that civ.

Once again there a lots of such mechanics in the game for all or most civs. You can pick any civ and say about some of their one unique mechanic and it will be hard to argue that this mechanic is not OP.
I already wrote about most obvious, but once again if you like to say exactly about eco bonuses, like french markets.
Simple example of eco - HRE have dark age monks - prelates, which boost your eco from the very start. Chinese have their tax officers, etc.
Example of navy - Rus navy are transformers. A moment ago these dozens of Ladyas were just fishing boats, now all of them are battle ships, which are on their way to destroy you.

Once again maybe french are the best. I'm not really arguing with this point. But only maybe. And they are not OP comparing to all other civs as if all of them were generic and only french had bonuses. It's even a little vice versa as I once again wrote earlier in the first message. Which is also maybe a reason why french are easier to play and can seem to be OP.

[andycott]

It's harder to defend in the game than to be aggressive. And french are better at being the aggressor.
So maybe not the exact civs need nerfing.
New or bigger bonuses to other civs to balance things. A lot can be done.
I think that an overall defensive ability of all the civs need bonuses too. Like the simpliest - polisades and walls can be harder to destroy. Jsut as an example.

[PotatoScav]

Your statement is wrong .
French is power not in some way but in all way , while others only in some ,end of conversation .

[Dayve]

No, the French are definitely overpowered. They get access to the best all-round unit in the game in the second age. It's fast, it has extremely high damage, it has great armour and hit points, its hit points regenerate, arrows barely do anything to it, and the unit that's supposed to hard counter it (spearmen) need to outnumber each knight 3-1 to be effective.

And on top of that they have faster villager production and all the other bonuses. French are definitely not balanced.

[andycott]

Originally posted by Dayve:

No, the French are definitely overpowered. They get access to the best all-round unit in the game in the second age. It's fast, it has extremely high damage, it has great armour and hit points, its hit points regenerate, arrows barely do anything to it, and the unit that's supposed to hard counter it (spearmen) need to outnumber each knight 3-1 to be effective.

And on top of that they have faster villager production and all the other bonuses. French are definitely not balanced.

Than what do you think about HRE Schwab House Landmark, which allows to produce villagers 75% faster and 75% cheaper?
What about Delhi first war Landmark, which gives 15% faster attack forever to all units, which pass by?
And there are lots of such unique mechanics. These are just the first, which came into mind.

And I wrote a lot about knights in the first message. French are not that unique in this aspect either. And you can heal all units with monks a little sooner. While royal knights healing is not that fast at all.

[Jebe]

Super powerful archers, super powerful knights, super powerful royal artillery, early knights and Hulks, everything better in economy, faster vills production…
Naahh the French are fine…

[Dayve]

Originally posted by andycott:

Originally posted by Dayve:

No, the French are definitely overpowered. They get access to the best all-round unit in the game in the second age. It's fast, it has extremely high damage, it has great armour and hit points, its hit points regenerate, arrows barely do anything to it, and the unit that's supposed to hard counter it (spearmen) need to outnumber each knight 3-1 to be effective.

And on top of that they have faster villager production and all the other bonuses. French are definitely not balanced.

Than what do you think about HRE Schwab House Landmark, which allows to produce villagers 75% faster and cheaper?
What about Delhi first war Landmark, which gives 15% faster attack forever to all units, which pass by?
And there are lots of such unique mechanics. These are just the first, which came into mind.

At least you have to actually DO SOMETHING to get those boons as those civs. With the French you just have them from the beginning.

[PotatoScav]

Originally posted by andycott:

Originally posted by Dayve:

No, the French are definitely overpowered. They get access to the best all-round unit in the game in the second age. It's fast, it has extremely high damage, it has great armour and hit points, its hit points regenerate, arrows barely do anything to it, and the unit that's supposed to hard counter it (spearmen) need to outnumber each knight 3-1 to be effective.

And on top of that they have faster villager production and all the other bonuses. French are definitely not balanced.

Than what do you think about HRE Schwab House Landmark, which allows to produce villagers 75% faster and cheaper?
What about Delhi first war Landmark, which gives 15% faster attack forever to all units, which pass by?
And there are lots of such unique mechanics. These are just the first, which came into mind.

yeah every faction have all rounded unit that as early as french .
some guy make long bow . French make knight .
some guy make spear , French spam more knight upgrade armor , like nothing happens .
some guy make hand cannon , french spam more knight .
you finally make knight , sorry french have auto healling <3
cannon ? french cannon is a mobile gunpowder siege weapon unique to the French. Unlike the Bombard, the Cannon does not need to pack and unpack.
https://ageofempires.fandom.com/wiki/French_(Age_of_Empires_IV)#Unique_units

4 french in 4v4 wins all faction who in chance dare not using french trust me

[andycott]

Originally posted by Who hurt you?:

Super powerful archers, super powerful knights, super powerful royal artillery, early knights and Hulks, everything better in economy, faster vills production…
Naahh the French are fine…

As I understood you meant powerfull arbelatiers, not archers.
I can agree about navy, because most civs are more generic than french in this aspect. But once again rus also have OP navy and most other land bonuses and their own uniques as french do.

[Varivox]

The problem is that, while every Civ has something that makes them powerful at some point in the game, the French are... just great at everything. They have a great economy, a great cavalry unit that regens itself, they have a great seige... What do they have that others don't? I play as Chinese, and I'm a slow Civ that struggles in Age 2 when French already have the best cav in the game. By the time I get to my seige, arguably the best thing about China, the French already have their own best cannons.

The problem isn't that other Civs also have their own strengths and weaknesses, it's that French have all Strengths. They are just generally, across the board, too good at competing in every stage of the game. There is no real downside. If you pick any other Civ, they have something powerful, but also something that offsets that power.

Whereas something like China is "slow and powerful", France is "Powerful and... powerful".

[andycott]

Originally posted by Dayve:

Originally posted by andycott:

Than what do you think about HRE Schwab House Landmark, which allows to produce villagers 75% faster and cheaper?
What about Delhi first war Landmark, which gives 15% faster attack forever to all units, which pass by?
And there are lots of such unique mechanics. These are just the first, which came into mind.

At least you have to actually DO SOMETHING to get those boons as those civs. With the French you just have them from the beginning.

Good point about french having some bonuses just by default. I thought that too.
Maybe they need at least to pay something for this.

But I also think all this needs more indepth analysis from devs in balancing civs.

I don't know about devs' balance plans, but as I wrote in the first message, I also think that the game needs balance. I just don't like the idea of nerfing french too much and as everyone is talking only about them, but not about bonuses of other civs, which can also seem unfair comparing to others.

[andycott]

Originally posted by Varivox:

The problem is that, while every Civ has something that makes them powerful at some point in the game, the French are... just great at everything. They have a great economy, a great cavalry unit that regens itself, they have a great seige... What do they have that others don't? I play as Chinese, and I'm a slow Civ that struggles in Age 2 when French already have the best cav in the game. By the time I get to my seige, arguably the best thing about China, the French already have their own best cannons.

The problem isn't that other Civs also have their own strengths and weaknesses, it's that French have all Strengths. They are just generally, across the board, too good at competing in every stage of the game. There is no real downside. If you pick any other Civ, they have something powerful, but also something that offsets that power.

Whereas something like China is "slow and powerful", France is "Powerful and... powerful".

Not arguing with that too.
I wrote that maybe french are the best, or not even maybe, but they are.

But I like more the idea of giving other civs something as an answear to french or overall instead of just nerfing french.
And the word owerpowered still doesn't seem right. The best - OK. As when studying all civs I found too many powerfull bonuses.

[Varivox]

Originally posted by andycott:

Originally posted by Dayve:

No, the French are definitely overpowered. They get access to the best all-round unit in the game in the second age. It's fast, it has extremely high damage, it has great armour and hit points, its hit points regenerate, arrows barely do anything to it, and the unit that's supposed to hard counter it (spearmen) need to outnumber each knight 3-1 to be effective.

And on top of that they have faster villager production and all the other bonuses. French are definitely not balanced.

Than what do you think about HRE Schwab House Landmark, which allows to produce villagers 75% faster and 75% cheaper?
What about Delhi first war Landmark, which gives 15% faster attack forever to all units, which pass by?
And there are lots of such unique mechanics. These are just the first, which came into mind.

And I wrote a lot about knights in the first message. French are not that unique in this aspect either. And you can heal all units with monks a little sooner. While royal knights healing is not that fast at all.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the HRE Schwab House Landmark is a castle age landmark? Costs a TON of resources and locks you out of the other Landmark bonus. It's also a single town center with that bonus, not applied accross the map.

Delhi gives a nice bonus to specific units, not all units, and ONLY to the ones that pass close by to it (rought a farm sized area surrounding it iirc) and it also locks you out of another Landmark bonus and costs a ton of resources. The moment you create a forward base, that Landmark is obsolete. It only works on the slowest units (infantry) and only if you force them to walk next to that building. That is a VERY limited bonus.

The problem with healing Knights isn't that Knights are healing, it's that the Knights are healing themselves. If I take HRE, for example, I get the Prelate that heals, but I have to make multiple Prelates that follow my army around. I have to invest, iirc, 100gold per prelate and I have to manage them. Also, they can be sniped out. Knights, however, keep their speed, don't have any real upkeep, it doesn't take a population spot, it doesn't require production time... they just get to heal. Period. Forever. I don't have to make a religious building or spend 100 extra gold or micro their movement or worry about their healing capabilities being disabled or killed, they just heal.

[Varivox]

Originally posted by andycott:

Not arguing with that too.
I wrote that maybe french are the best, or not even maybe, but they are.

But I like more the idea of giving other civs something as an answear to french or overall instead of just nerfing french.
And the word owerpowered still doesn't seem right. The best - OK. As when studying all civs I found too many powerfull bonuses.

IMO, the idea of keeping French as good at everything and, instead, making everyone else good at everything is... that's boring.

One big complaint with AoE4, that I see in the forums here, is how few factions there are. And, yea, compared to AoE2's 20+ civs(?), AoE4 is certainly lacking. However, AoE4's civs are all really unique. China is a slow burn up to the endgame where its' seige becomes awesome, English are longbow turtles. They have unique mechanics, but even without those, they are all very unique.

If you bring everyone else "up" to the French level, you take away a lot of that unique flavour. Then AoE4 really does "only" have 8 civs. Quite frankly, I don't see nerfing France as a bad thing, as that would give them a real personality. Right now, they do everything... Whereas I can look at Dheli and see how slow their early economy is but how it quickly ramps up, France is just... vanilla coated in vanilla with a vanilla center, served in a vanilla cone. I would love to see France have a real downside, if only to give it SOME unique personality to it.